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Thread: Electric brake for tablesaws?

  1. #16
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    May 2006
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    Hi Steve

    I don't know about any "shaper like" dado blade but, I think that only the blade can be installed on the arbor that is so short that anything more than 3mm cannot fit (the arbor is 30mm dia according the EU regulations)

    The table saw on the pic is "Elekra Beckum" (owned by Metabo) but some 1 year ago, everything is Metabo and the name Electra Beckum remained only on the older production line - but it's the same TS just with new label...

    Here is a general view - the sliding table is original and you can see a few of my improvements...

    Regards
    niki
    0006.jpg0005.jpg

  2. #17
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    Feb 2008
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    I use a Griggio (Italian) at work that stops in under 4 seconds, costs around $10, 000. Its a small slider, maybe a 60" stroke? Very nice machine. It accepts a dado stack and a stacked scoring blade, they have overcome the 'no dado' problem with a serious locking collar on the arbor unlike anything on an American saw. If you've seen a shaper arbor with the lock ring for reverse rotation, its a little like that but has a key way involved and two pins on the arbor collar. I would not try to break a standard US made TS as the blade spinning off is a much worse scenario than waiting for it to stop. Having the blade break on that slider is a real convenience, wish they all had that but glad I didn't have to pay for that saw. My slot mortiser has a breaking motor that stops in a few seconds which is also a real nice feature for safety and quick set up changes.

    I'm sorry to hear of your injury but in all honesty a wound inflicted by lack of patience and adherence to a strict safety protocol (don't reach over the blade to retrieve a work piece, wait for the blade to stop before working around the saw, etc) os only tenuously an accident to the extent that it wasn't intentional. It falls in my book close to drunk driving accidents, not intentional but a highly likely outcome from risky behavior.

  3. #18
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    Aug 2008
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    Marquette MI
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    Thanks guys for your informative,sympathetic and constructive responses to my dumb accident. I'm going to check out some of the electric brake options. And a special thanks to Peter Quinn for equating my accident to drunken driving - thanks Pete - really helpful.

  4. #19
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    Didn't mean to irk you there Robert. It sucks to be injured, I am concerned for your safety and I hope you never see the ER again. But...

    Way I see it there are two kinds of accidents. There are those unforeseen kind like a kick back from release of tension or a hidden defect in a board, or a serious machine malfunction, and there are those completely avoidable ones we all give ourselves, like nicking a finger on a blade or shoving a screw driver into the palm of one's hand (I still have a scar from one of those). I work in a cabinet shop where risky behavior is not tolerated, and I'm not sure if that's to protect the employee's or the owners insurance policy or both. Maybe something about decreased productivity too. But if you get caught doing something stupid, or about to, you get told quick. The most effective safety device available is not bolted to a machine, it sits under your hat. There is a zero sympathy policy on avoidable accidents. It doesn't always feel good but it does promote safe work habits pretty quick.

    And the reason drunk driving is a crime is that behavior risks injury to others, unlike most things you do with a wood working machine which typically only injure the user. I didn't mean to insinuate that you are a criminal, but I do feel that the two behaviors share many similarities. And I have ben guilty of operating machinery under the influence of stupidity more times than I care to think about, thank God I was never caught. I am slowly reforming my ways.

  5. #20
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    Aug 2008
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    OK - thanks Pete - I just reacted to the drunk driver analogy. At least in my shop I only directly hurt myself [but here's where the drunk driver analogy holds true] I also hurt my wife and others who care about me. I think that I have apologized about 10 times to my wife for my stupidity[she accepts my apologies]. On we go - lesson learned and stupidity realized. Guess I'll have a beer.

    Bob Chapman

  6. #21
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    Jan 2008
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    Western Nebraska
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nissim Avrahami View Post
    Hi Steve

    I don't know about any "shaper like" dado blade but, I think that only the blade can be installed on the arbor that is so short that anything more than 3mm cannot fit (the arbor is 30mm dia according the EU regulations)

    The table saw on the pic is "Elekra Beckum" (owned by Metabo) but some 1 year ago, everything is Metabo and the name Electra Beckum remained only on the older production line - but it's the same TS just with new label...

    Here is a general view - the sliding table is original and you can see a few of my improvements...

    Regards
    niki
    0006.jpg0005.jpg
    Thanks for the info Niki, I've never seen a saw like yours before. Sure looks like it ought to work well. It's interesting to see what we are missing on this side of the pond. Have a good day,

    Steve

  7. #22
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    Dec 2008
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    Northern Michigan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Bratt View Post
    You are correct - European saws are required to use dynamic braking. And this is why they are not allowed to mount dado stacks. The braking action can be adjusted to stop a 10" (or 12"?) blade without loosening the arbor nut, but dado stacks have too much mass. For larger diameter saws, there are little stubs on the arbor and matching holes in the blade to keep the arbor nut from loosening.
    I have a european model saw with the shot arbor, but I have a stub spindle/stabilizer/nut that converts the 1" arbor to 1 1/4" that I use with dado blades. I had Forrest bore an eight inch dado stack for me. I like it because I can take the whole stack off on the adapter.

  8. #23
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    Dec 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Chapman View Post
    Yesterday I did something dumb in the shop and spent an hour in the ER as a result. I was ripping some 3/4 inch plywood on my TS, had turned off the saw after a cut and was moving the large remaining piece when I touched the still rotating blade with two fingers of my right hand. I know - the blade guard was in the corner - also dumb.

    So here is my thought - if the motor on the TS had been equiped with an electric brake I might not have two fingers throbbing and bandaged. Do any TSs have electric brakes on the motor? If not why not? My PC circular saw has one. Seems like a good safety feature.

    I know - if I had a Sawstop I would not be writing this post.
    Hi Robert, I'm very sorry to hear about your preventable accident.

    Although I'm sorry to see you get injured, your injury is probably one of the most common, caused by two issues;

    1) Lack of a guard.

    2) Lack of patience.

    I find the problem with tablesaw guards is that they can't be used for non through cuts, so we remove them. The correct method is to not use the TS for non through cuts since it's not designed for that. (Always use the correct tool for the operation).

    The other solution is an overarm guard, I happen to have an Excalibur and like it.

    So from a safety perspective, use the machine as designed, or replace the guard with a suitable one, that can stay on the machine for all operations. If you can't use a guard, don't perform that operation on that machine.

    The patience aspect has always been an issue in industry, and some machinery has electrical braking of the motor via a VFD , DC injection or electrically operated mechanical brakes.

    When I worked in the wood industry, we had "Coasting Blades Bite" safety posters with the top of the blade re-drawn as a snake with it's fangs exposed, posted in most areas of the plant. Even then we three coast down accidents while I worked there.

    Since patience can't be regulated, blade brakes and usable guards are required in the EU, fortunately we will also follow suit, however as usual, later rather than sooner.

    I notice than the MAN and MECH designations for cutters required in the EU are spreading to North America, the last shaper cutter I purchased was labled MAN for hand feeding. So some of the safety aspects are crossing the pond.

    Sorry to hear that you were injured, however reading your post I see that you'll be more careful in the future.

    Regards, and best wishes for your recovery.......Rod.

  9. #24
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    Nov 2007
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    Mid Missouri (Brazito/Henley)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Chapman View Post
    - if I had a Sawstop I would not be writing this post.
    Hmmmm! I have to Wonder! Inquiring Minds Want to Know! Does the emergency braking function of the SawStop remain functional AFTER the motor is turned off, and the blade is COASTING? Those hotdogs are nicked Under Power!

    As for dynamic/electronic brakes loosening of arbor nuts, those can be adjusted to allow a short coast time. There is no need to have a blade stop in a split-second! Belt-driven tablesaws stop faster than direct-drive saws. Radial arm saws coast FOREVER! Especially the big ones. Dynamic braking has been used successfully on those for a long time, accomplishing the purpose it was designed for.

    Sorry about your mishap, Robert! I, too, have scars from stupidity and inattention! At least WE both have all our fingers! In the final analysis, the Individual is responsible for his Own safety!
    [/SIGPIC]Necessisity is the Mother of Invention, But If it Ain't Broke don't Fix It !!

  10. #25
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    Sep 2007
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    Bucks County, Pennsylvania
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    I went to a wood show not long ago -- they had a Sawstop and I wanted to know the same thing. Unfortunately no one was around and I was not at the show long enough for the afternoon "demonstration".

    A brake on table saws and band-saws should be mandatory .... IMO.

  11. #26
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    Jan 2006
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    Mt. Pleasant, MI
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    According to the manufacturer the safety system is still energized and will work while the switch is off and the blade is coasting to a stop.

    Since tablesaws rarely injure anyone but the operator I am not a big fan of .GOV intervening and making features mandatory. The UL will most likely make a lot of those features mandatory by not listing saws without them in the future.

    Hope your hand heals fast, we are all guilty of breaking the rules from time to time. Sometimes you get bit some times you don't. The only incidents I have had have been kickbacks but they still did some damage.

    Joe
    JC Custom WoodWorks

    For best results, try not to do anything stupid.

    "So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause." - Padmé Amidala "Star Wars III: The Revenge of the Sith"

  12. #27
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    266
    Do any TSs have electric brakes on the motor?
    My Porter Cable 3812 jobsite saw has an electric brake which works pretty well and a feature I appreciate- I had the same type of accident some years ago though not as severe on my old contractor's saw. It got my attention and like Peter I am (still) slowly reforming my ways. Fwiw Grizzly has introduced revised versions of two models in their bandsaw line (G0531B/G0566B) that have have a magnetic brake- it will be interesting to see how well they work and if the technology filters down to the tablesaw line. Hope you are well on the mend.

  13. #28
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    Feb 2008
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    Northfield, Mn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Quinn View Post
    The most effective safety device available is not bolted to a machine, it sits under your hat. There is a zero sympathy policy on avoidable accidents. It doesn't always feel good but it does promote safe work habits pretty quick.
    Thank you for posting that Peter. I grew up with the idea that ignorance should be painfull, if it isn't painfull it should be expensive.

    Accidents happen though, but to my line of thinking the guards make people too relaxed. A guard isn't a guarantee that you won't mangle your digits, only keeping your head out of your butt is. I've stuck my head up my butt, and paid for my mistake in stitches because of it too, so your not alone Robert.

    Hey, if you were there an hour couldn't have been too bad.

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