Woodcraft WoodRiver bench planes...are these any good?

[Tony Zaffuto]

I disagree Jim.

I got a very decent 605 from Ebay for $90.00 (including shipping). No cracks in sole, no chips on tote or knob, jappaning was at least 85% if not better. Two issues, someone dabbed some red oxide primer on the inside of the sole, probably as an ID marker and the yoke pin was replaced with a small finish nail. I added a Hock blade ($35.00) and a LN chipbreaker ($30.00) for a total out of the pocket cost of $155.00. This is now a jack plane that can also take shavings down to .0015, without even touching the sole on a lapping plate (if that sort of thing trips your trigger).

Go to any tool sale and you'll find similar bargains. Out here in PA, there are several good ones coming up. The first is Patina, in Damascus, MD and the second is the dealer sale for the Brown auction. At either of these, you'll find decent 605s in that price range. You can also call tool dealers such as the Leach-Meister and tell them you're looking for a user 605 (not a collector) and I bet you won't be far off my price.

As far as the Borg, Grant and Woodriver planes, the Bedrock designs have been around for years, although I feel the similarity in looks was a deliberate attempt to deceive. If these planes perform as good as a Bedrock, then it's not all smoke and mirrors. As far as the Veritas scraper and #95 knock-offs, I hope LV defends their patents, and with that, let the courts decide this issue.

T.Z.

[John Schreiber]

. . . doing what our economic system wants them to do. . . .

I hope this is seen as philosophical discussion rather than political, but shouldn't the economic system serve the people rather than the people serve the economic system? I think that the argument that serving the economic system also best serves the people has been demonstrated to be impractical.

[Mike Henderson]

I can't answer your question, John - maybe a bit too philosophical for me. The point I was trying to make is that we have an existing economic system in our country (and in most of the world) and it encourages people to take certain actions, one of which is to seek the best value for their money.

I suppose we can argue whether that economic system provides the "best" outcome, but that would get fairly political, I suppose.

Mike

[Dave Anderson NH]

Just a friendly warning folks. So far this thread has remained civil, but it skirts at the edge of what is allowed by the SMC Terms of Service. I will let it remain in place as long as this doesn't degenerate into a free for all. At better alternative would be to get back on topic though.

Thanks for your cooperation. It's obvious that folks can disagree and still respect each other. I like that.

[David Keller NC]

"I'm not an attorney, but I'd think a suit based on "trade dress" would be tough to make if the brand is displayed prominently. There are legal ways to protect your design - a design patent or a copyright, for example - and the courts are usually not willing to create new protections."

Mike - Just an aside here (and for anyone else interested in this issue that may be considering making furniture, toys, etc... for sale), there's an interesting article about this in the November, 2008 issue of Popular Woodworking - the title is "Imitation Could be Illegal". Some of the topics discussed are patent protections, design patents, trade dress infringement, and copyright protections.

I suspect you're quite right about the difficulty of such a lawsuit, though there have been a fair number of successful cases (for the plaintiff). I rather doubt such a suit would be filed, at least by Lie-Nielsen. I've a feeling L-N isn't big enough to support the legal bills, though Lee Valley might decide to pursue action due to a design patent infringement.

Dave - There's good reasons quite a few of us are on this board, what you've alluded to is one of them. While a topic like this (or the discussion that's ensued) may well make a moderator nervous, these issues do come up and are worth discussing without the mud-slinging and personal attacks I've seen on a couple of other forums (that shall remain nameless )

[Jerome Hanby]

I wasn't saying there was only one source for American made blue jeans, I was relaying what this particular web site had online at the time.

Point I was making: someone went to the trouble to construct such a website, but couldn't collect a "strong" number of entries. My assumption was that they made some kind of effort and their results reflected a fairly accurate general,but definitely not not empirical, view of reality.

On the flip side there are some website where you can identify Chinese goods too. I think two of them are walmart.com and target.com.

Jerome,

This is not true for all of America, there are other alternatives.

I was told about this site in the past couple days, they do have made in America Carhartt. I don't know if it is NOS or not, but it seems that some is still made in America. I just bought 2 pair of Carhartt jeans and returned them today and got my money back. I'm ordering from this site online, or try to find the Gussets.

I put my money where my mouth is, I suggested the surplus store think about carrying Gussets also.

http://www.allamericanclothing.com/usa_carhartt.php

Also, these are made in America:

http://www.gussetclothing.com/

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting that Toyota trucks are now made in America, not far from me at NUMMI.

Is a large percentage of parts made here, or is it mostly "assembled in America?"

I can think of only a few tools in my shop that are not made in America. Some may be Canada or Europe. Mostly the newer power tools are likely not made in the states even with a name that has been an American name for years before the move to off shore production.

jim

[Brian Kent]

The standard for calling a car "Domestic" is 75% domestic parts content.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...30/013345.html

This article lists the top 10 in terms of domestic parts percentage. Toyota holds 3 of these spots.

[Dan Karachio]

The new unisaw is made in TN! Oops, forgot I was in the hand tool forum!

[John Sanford]

All companies can do is follow the law.

This is true, but it must be noted that the People's Republic of China for all intents and purposes completely ignores all intellectual property laws. Not surprising when you consider the "everything is owned by the people" rationalization. I'm not sure how intellectual infringement works in a situation such as this, how much liability exposure Woodcraft may have if the planes do cross the line, given that they are not the manufacturer.

It will be interesting to see these planes, but in truth, AFAIC (concerned), I buy my tools as much based on the "story" as on the cost. The tools don't have to meet any sort of Return on Investment number, just give me a warm fuzzy when I use them or look at them, and satisfy their intended function.

Are there tools that come from Asia that have "compelling" stories? Sure. Japanese chisels, some Japanese handsaws and marking tools, many of those Asian wood bodies pull-planes, etc. Knock offs of classic and updated Western metal planes? Nope, not even if they were done by Master Smith Chu Wong. Irwin/Marples chisels, made in China? Nope. Wusthoff-Trident knives, made in China of German steel? Nope.

So, for the lad (or lass) who simply wants X level of performance at the lowest direct cost, these planes may be a heckuva deal. For me? I doubt it. I'm going to be getting two bench planes when I can, a jack and a smoother. Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley are almost certain to get my money for them. I've visited LN in Maine, they're part of my story, as is Lee Valley. Not so some anonymous factory in China.

Truth be told, 95% of the folks posting here do woodworking purely for the enjoyment, not for economic reasons. We do it because of the chapters it adds to our life stories, and because it allows us to write enduring elements (we hope) into the life stories of those we care about.

[Brian J. Williams]

The folks in the PRC continue to steal any idea they can (from computers to Terex trucks to Caterpillar equipment to our missile technology and now to LV planes). They do so without any hesitation. Why? They back-engineer about anything, and then turn around and sell it elsewhere.

It doesn't help when folks like Woodcraft buys from them and then sells the illegitimate product here. As Rob said, it's theft of intellectual property, pure and simple. I for one will not tolerate that kind of thing. In my engineering practice, I've had designs, drawings, and entire plan sets lifted by low-balling types who simply white-out my title block and add their own. I put a lot of effort into my work, and then to have some jackass steal it makes me want to reach for my 1911. (Being from the Great White North, I don't believe Rob is allowed to own a 1911- pity.)

Once educated about the background of the knock-offs (be it tools or engineering concepts) the consumer is then as guilty as the profiteer for buying the product. I for one will NEVER again darken the door of Woodcraft for as much as a drill bit.

Brian Williams, PE PG

[Joel Goodman]

+1 for Brian Williams!

[Alan DuBoff]

Is a large percentage of parts made here, or is it mostly "assembled in America?"

Jim,

I don't know exactly percentages, nor that my neighbor would tell me. I'm certain he knows.

It is my understanding that the drive trains and chassis are manufactured to GM spec, and the fit/finish of the Japanese trucks is combined to essentially make "best of breed".

The trucks are assembled in Fremont, CA, very close to Silicon Valley. (EDIT: to note that this is one of the most expensive areas to live in America)

AFAIK, Toyota trucks are the No. 1 selling truck in America nowadays. And if you haven't seen, they stuff big 'ol 5.7 liter engines in them for those that need the power. That's a full size pickup that competes head on with the Chevy and Ford trucks.

[Alan DuBoff]

The standard for calling a car "Domestic" is 75% domestic parts content.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...30/013345.html

This article lists the top 10 in terms of domestic parts percentage. Toyota holds 3 of these spots.

Brian,

Interesting to note that the trucks are not on there, neither Tacomas or Tundras.

[David Bodkin]

AFAIK, Toyota trucks are the No. 1 selling truck in America nowadays. And if you haven't seen, they stuff big 'ol 5.7 liter engines in them for those that need the power. That's a full size pickup that competes head on with the Chevy and Ford trucks.

I think the Tundra will need to quadruple its sales before achieving that title.

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...0090105?rpc=44