Woodcraft WoodRiver bench planes...are these any good?

[David Keller NC]

Mike - I remains to be seen whether the imitations Derek kindly provided examples of are truly legal. In addition to patents, there's such a thing as infringing on "trade dress", in other words, making your product such a blatant copy of someone else's that an individual could easily mistake one for another. Generally, the application of a different label (i.e., "Grant" instead of "Lie Nielsen") is not a sufficient defense against such infringement - closely copying the form and materials is enough.

Whether legal or not, there is an ethical consideration here that goes above and beyond the law. This is why I do not shop at Wal-Mart, and will go out of my way and spend extra money to avoid products that are sold at rock-bottom prices and made in Asia. It may well be (in fact, probably) that Asia will no longer be the cheap origination point - once social pressure forces environmental law enforcement, labor laws, and other restrictions that Western countries have had in place for many decades, it's likely that production will move to another low-cost, regulatory-free location, such as Africa.

But all that makes sense - corporations are not bound by ethics, only law. What I (and many others) find really disturbing is our fellow citizen's insistence on the lowest price possible, without regard to the circumstances. Wal-Mart is not the evil-doer, it's the thousands upon thousands that flock through the doors every day.

[James K Peterson]

I almost feel bad for asking, but are these planes junk? I would suspect they are low quality clones, but I didn't see anyone actually saying they had one.

[Alan DuBoff]

All companies can do is follow the law. You could try to change the law, of course, but our economic system and the laws that guide it have worked very well. Whatever you replaced it with would have its own problems.

Mike

I don't believe this. Many companies go to China so they don't need to perform all the UL testing, or be able to dispose of hazardous materials inexpensively. They do that in China.

I was so disappointed recently to find that Carhartt products are not made in America anymore, at least not entirely.

Buying American made products is good for our country in general, and something I support. China can keep all of their crappy product and sell/use in China for all I care.

[Jerome Hanby]

Buying American made products is good for our country in general, and something I support. China can keep all of their crappy product and sell/use in China for all I care.

I certainly agree with the sentiment, but it's kind of hard to live by. I heard of a web site on a morning radio show months ago. It was basically a buy American portal to direct you to various products still made in the USA. I was a little shocked by the small number of items. As I recall, a good percentage of the links were for custom made items like furniture. Only one source for blue jeans (Texas brand, made in NC).

[David Bodkin]

I don't believe this. Many companies go to China so they don't need to perform all the UL testing, or be able to dispose of hazardous materials inexpensively. They do that in China.

Don't forget high business taxes and regulations/restrictions that are placed on companies in America.

[Joel Goodman]

Amen to David Keller and Alan Duboff's posts!

[Tri Hoang]

In the beginning I just wanted to get some "technical" input on the planes.

Let's suppose that these planes were made by an American company and sold at the same price point, would you take the same stand?

Despite ethical concerns about these planes, I think they will serve as a strong motivation for further innovations.

Up until this point, most of my new planes are LV...btw

[Chuck Tringo]

In the end, you can make your choices and do the best that you can do...but as an earlier poster mentioned, thjis is easier said than done. The whole buy American Slogan was originally pushed by the same companies that have moved their product manufacturing overseas. I can guarantee that everyone here has products made in other countries where labor laws and wages are scant....you need only look in your wardrobe. If you choose to apply a standard to your tools because that is your passion, then so be it, but telling everyone who wants a cheaper alternative that they are causing the downfall of civilization because they buy some of these products is hypocrisy. Look in your pantry while your at it....if you are going to apply that standard then Im sure youll find that much of what you eat is produced in these countries, not to mention the toys you buy for your kids and grandkids. What car do you drive buy the way ? A chevy made in South America ? or a Toyota made in the USA ? The OP only asked if these were of decent quality, he didnt ask to be crucified for being an un-American nazi communist trying to bring about the downfall of civilization as we know it.../RANT OFF

[Tri Hoang]

I just called woodcraft for more info on these. The cap iron and the iron would be 3mm thick (close to 1/8"). The #5 weights about 2.6Kg or 5.7lbs. ETA has been changed to end of Feb.

[Alan DuBoff]

Only one source for blue jeans (Texas brand, made in NC).

Jerome,

This is not true for all of America, there are other alternatives.

I was told about this site in the past couple days, they do have made in America Carhartt. I don't know if it is NOS or not, but it seems that some is still made in America. I just bought 2 pair of Carhartt jeans and returned them today and got my money back. I'm ordering from this site online, or try to find the Gussets.

I put my money where my mouth is, I suggested the surplus store think about carrying Gussets also.

http://www.allamericanclothing.com/usa_carhartt.php

Also, these are made in America:

http://www.gussetclothing.com/

[Joel Goodman]

Thanks for the website. I've been buying "American Apparel" T shirts made in Los Angeles. More pricey than the imports but for the 7 T shirts I own... They seem to last longer as well.

[Dan Karachio]

Just my two cents, but I am really glad to hear made in America being important as is quality. Having those two together is a great thing. I think many people are starting to wake up to the idea that, gee, we actually need to make things in this country (other than credit default swaps and adjustable rate mortgages). I have another thread on starting a set of essential planes, and I am going to commit myself to either buying some of the fabulous new planes from American mfgs or used Stanleys thereby supporting US business men who do all the good work of finding these planes.

Now if I could be a little more sure of my job future I swear I would go out and by a nice US made truck!

[Mike Henderson]

Mike - I remains to be seen whether the imitations Derek kindly provided examples of are truly legal. In addition to patents, there's such a thing as infringing on "trade dress", in other words, making your product such a blatant copy of someone else's that an individual could easily mistake one for another. Generally, the application of a different label (i.e., "Grant" instead of "Lie Nielsen") is not a sufficient defense against such infringement - closely copying the form and materials is enough.

Whether legal or not, there is an ethical consideration here that goes above and beyond the law. This is why I do not shop at Wal-Mart, and will go out of my way and spend extra money to avoid products that are sold at rock-bottom prices and made in Asia. It may well be (in fact, probably) that Asia will no longer be the cheap origination point - once social pressure forces environmental law enforcement, labor laws, and other restrictions that Western countries have had in place for many decades, it's likely that production will move to another low-cost, regulatory-free location, such as Africa.

But all that makes sense - corporations are not bound by ethics, only law. What I (and many others) find really disturbing is our fellow citizen's insistence on the lowest price possible, without regard to the circumstances. Wal-Mart is not the evil-doer, it's the thousands upon thousands that flock through the doors every day.

I'm not an attorney, but I'd think a suit based on "trade dress" would be tough to make if the brand is displayed prominently. There are legal ways to protect your design - a design patent or a copyright, for example - and the courts are usually not willing to create new protections. The company copying the design could also argue that there's only a limited number of ways to make a plane.

Companies copy other products all the time - they usually make a few small changes to avoid any legal issues. And most would get a legal opinion from in-house or an outside legal firm to make sure they're on good legal footing.

And there's nothing wrong with a buyer looking for the best price for the goods they buy. That's what our economic system encourages buyers to do.

If you do not like the "ethics" of a company, such as Wall Mart, you should not shop there. But you should not condemn those who do shop there. They're only doing what our economic system wants them to do.

Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

Thanks for the website. I've been buying "American Apparel" T shirts made in Los Angeles. More pricey than the imports but for the 7 T shirts I own... They seem to last longer as well.

All American had t-shirts for $6.99, $7.99 w/pocket, made in America. They gave me one for greater than $60 purchase, so will let you know of the quality.

I have another thread on starting a set of essential planes, and I am going to commit myself to either buying some of the fabulous new planes from American mfgs or used Stanleys thereby supporting US business men who do all the good work of finding these planes.

That's a good thought. Even when you buy used, you keep your $$$s in America. That in itself is important in the end.

Now if I could be a little more sure of my job future I swear I would go out and by a nice US made truck!

Interesting that Toyota trucks are now made in America, not far from me at NUMMI. My next door neighbor is working there, from Toyota Japan. He will be here for a few years more. Most folks don't know that GM has a stake in these trucks either. This type of localized manufacturing will be more popular in the future, IMO.

FWIW, I would buy an American truck if I thought it would ensure my job future also, but seeing I was laid off last week, I'm not gonna be buying a new truck from anywhere...I do have time to work in the shop though...just not the way I wanted to get it...

[James Carmichael]

Why not just look for an actual bedrock at the flea market? You could probably get it for a third of what WC sells these for.

If someone is selling orignal Bedrocks for $35-$40 apiece, I'll buy all they've got. WC lists their #5 for $120. That wouldn't buy a good long look at an original 605 in good condition. For half that sum, you might net a ratty 605 with a brazed sole and broken tote.