Dovetail saw for beginner?

[Justin Green]

What would be a good dovetail saw for a beginner? I'm aware that there are $150 saws and $10 saws... just not sure what the differences are and would like to buy one that will get me going without breaking the bank (since I'm also trying to round out my plane selection and get all of my sharpening equipment purchased)... I'm trying to set up a mostly hand tool shop.

I see a lot of dovetail saws listed on e-bay. Crown, Disston, etc., but I don't know vintages and quality of the various saws. I like fixing up old tools, but have never sharpened a saw and have no vise to use, etc.

[John Keeton]

Justin, you may want to review the following thread - including, of course, the small heated battle that took place whilst the thread progressed. It has a good amount of information, including some good contribution from the combatants!!
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=102860

I vote for the new LV, and that comment in itself will stir debate.

[Justin Green]

Thanks John - the saws mentioned in that thread in the price range I'm looking at (>$50) were the Japenese saws... I'm definitely going to consider one of those...

Edit - on the Japenese saws - are the blades typically thrown away when they get dull? I see many of the Japanese saws have replacement blades available...

[John Dykes]

I'm with Mr. Keeton on this one. I'd push you to the LV.

There are folks who swear by both the Western and Japanese saws. When I first started, I researched both camps and came down on the Western side. Why? Eh...

- My ideal would be to stick with all Western traditional tools and techniques.
- I like the looks of the Western saws.
- I've met a few makers of these Western saws, and that means a lot to me.
- Most (in not all) of my woodworking heroes use Western saws.

You see, nothing to do with performance! .... but I've been very happy that I chose this route in my ignorance.

[Brian Kent]

Thanks John - the saws mentioned in that thread in the price range I'm looking at (>$50) were the Japenese saws... I'm definitely going to consider one of those...

Edit - on the Japenese saws - are the blades typically thrown away when they get dull? I see many of the Japanese saws have replacement blades available...

I started with Japanese saws for the price and have gotten amazing results with a Dozuki from Rockler for dovetails. I returned one blade that was overly brittle after one week. The next blade has lasted 3 years so far. A couple of missing teeth, but not dull yet, and yes, it is a throw-away when it gets dull.

My second saw is a Ryoba - double sided for cross cut and rip cut. Each was under $50. I would not give these up, even as I am looking to try more expensive western saws.

[Joe Cunningham]

I tried both a Japanese dozuki (z) saw and the LV Dovetail saw. I found I did better with the LV saw and suspect it is because all my other saws are western style (I tend to use mostly hand saws).

If you can, try both styles, then get whichever one you seem to saw best with.

[Justin Green]

Thanks for all of the info - I'm leaning towards the Japanese saws because of cost but eventually I want a nice western one.

[Wilbur Pan]

Gyokucho model #311 rip dozuki, about $30-35.

If you want to try a Japanese saw, that is.

But I happen to think this is the best inexpensive saw around for cutting dovetails.

[John Keeton]

Thanks for all of the info - I'm leaning towards the Japanese saws because of cost but eventually I want a nice western one.

Justin, if I can give you the benefit of making several mistakes in my lifetime (white hair to prove it!), never buy to make do. Always buy for the long haul - it is much cheaper in the long run and usually in the short run.

If you spend $30-40 on a Japanese saw to get you by, and "eventually" get a western saw, you will spend considerably more over 5 years. Wait until you can afford what you really want, buy it, learn to sharpen it, and have a saw for the better part of a lifetime.

Just some words from a guy who has done what you propose too many times - and has learned better!

[James Williams 007]

Chris Gochnour did a comparison of a wide range of western saws and then rated them for an article in FWW. Surprisingly he gave a "Best overall" and a "Best Value" to the gents saw by Crown from highlandswoodworking.com for only 24$. My wife bought me this saw for X-mas and I have been having fun learning how to cut dovetails ever since.

[Justin Green]

Thanks for the advice John, I do typically try to buy better quality when I buy to keep down repair and replacement costs (learned this lesson on lawn mowers, dangit).

I know there are different steels used for saws, and differing weights and materials and workmanship between the blades and handles, I just don't have a lot of experience with hand saws where the cut has to be precise... So I'm doing some reading...

I will also be needing a crosscut or tenon saw at the same time (building a workbench), plus bench hardware, dogs, and sharpening equipment, so all of this seems a little overwhelming when getting into the really fine saws. Here's the list so far, not necessarily in any order:

1) Face vise or end vise or both for bench.
2) Dovetail saw.
3) Crosscut or tenon saw.
4) Electric grinder.
5) Decent supply of sandpaper in varying grits.
6) Waterstones/oil stones...
etc., etc....

[John Dykes]

Let me stir the pot; more to generate thought and discussion than to provide a solid direction (as is my way I suppose).

Don't buy a dovetail saw.

If your first project with this kit of tools is a workbench, why get a dovetail saw? The most basic workbench isn't an example of fine joinery (basic bench). At this point, do your cuts need to be so very precise? Can you mark a deep line, cut outside the line and pare down with a chisel for a workbench tenon - I'd say yes...

What might be the very minimum for building a basic bench.
- Rip saw (but can cross-cut in a pinch)
- Jointer plane (#7 - can do lots of everything else)
- Marples chisels
- Sharpening
- Marking tools

A sharp plane and chisel can compensate for rough saw cuts - and usually do!

There all this for $100! Ok, well - maybe a bit more.... but my point is don't despair that you have to buy so many tools. Did I build my bench with only the above? What! Are you kidding me!! But there's a lot you can do with a sharp saw, plane, and chisel. And a workbench might be the best way to realize that (as it can be a bit rough).

Might help to post your location too... might be someone near you.

[Dan Bertenthal]

A comment on Japanese saws is that they're typically designed for the softer woods traditionally used in Japanese woodworking, and the very hard teeth leave them somewhat brittle for harder woods. I chipped away countless teeth on my first two Gyokucho dozuki blades before I realized this. I do love the Gyokucho saw and splurged on a handmade dozuki when I was in Kyoto (which I'm almost afraid to use). Perhaps someone has adapted a Japanese-style saw for harder woods?
Now that I think about it (please forgive me if this has been discussed into the ground on other threads), there's also the different ergonomics of Western and Japanese woodworking. Since Japanese woodwork tends to be done on low-trestles, presumably the saws evolved for that work posture. If you're planning on a Western-style bench, I'd imagine Western-style saws are more compatible.
d
p.s. Definitely off-topic, but now that I think about it, Kyoto is famous for it's cherry blossoms so they certainly have hardwoods available. Also, some of the gifts I brought back were hair combs which were made with very-precise saw kerfs (I'm not kidding). It's a long tradition, apparently, albeit a dying one. I don't recall what woods were used, but presumably the woods would need to be fairly hard to hold up in use?

[Justin Green]

John,

I know I'm kind of getting off topic here, since I asked about saws... BUT, I'm a newbie, and have lots of questions, and for the past week have been spending at a minimum, one hour a night reading and searching Sawmill Creek. Thanks to grandpa, ebay, and flea markets & antique stores, I have already begun down the addicting path of flea market Stanley planes! I have 3 #4s, a #7, and a #8, a new Stanley block plane, a Veritas scrub plane, and a #5 Stanley on the way so I'll have a jack plane. I had a slab of nice granite that was broken and then given to me, so I use it to sharpen the plane blades. I'm sharpening them freehand, and I suck at it so far, but I don't have a way to hollow grind the blades yet and most of the used blades come with the bevel rounded. I have managed to get one of the #4s, the #7, and the #8 blade sharp enough to shave using a diamond hone and then sandpaper up to 2000 grit wet dry.

I've already laminated pine to make the core of my bench top. I still need to make the doghole strip, apron, back, and tool tray. Because I used leftover 1x southern yellow pine for the top, the glue up was pretty nasty looking. I tried to reject cupped boards, but a lot of the boards had a crown, which was glued up with the crown sticking out. I ripped the boards to 4" and glued them up in sections and then glued the sections together. The top is now 3 3/8" thick, after using the scrub plane to get rid of the offending crowns, then the #7 to try and remove the twist. It's 95" long, and 16" deep so far. I have the top and bottom very close to flat, but haven't smoothed it yet. The sides have been jointed with the #8 and they're square to the top. I will have to post a picture tonight of the huge pile of shavings made from the nasty glue up (takes a flat bench to make a flat bench, I understand now!)... There are only 3 places where the lamination left voids. These are getting an epoxy fill after smoothing. Just planing the top, I have learned volumes about reading grain to avoid tearout, the value of a sharp blade, and a lot about adjusting the planes. It's a lot of fun.

For the front strip/skirt and end caps, I would like these to be dovetailed, which led me to this post... And of course, I need to build a big base, which will be mortise and tenon.

I have a set of Buck's Brothers chisels that are sharp and they easily shave, so these might have to do while hunting for a set of Marples.

For marking & layout tools, I have a slide bevel, try square, and assortment of levels from 6"-6' long. Need a marking knife, but I do have an x-acto that works fairly well for rough marking.

Alrighty, that was longwinded... thanks for all of the suggestions and pardon my newness to all of this.

[John Keeton]

I will also be needing a crosscut or tenon saw at the same time (building a workbench), plus bench hardware, dogs, and sharpening equipment, so all of this seems a little overwhelming when getting into the really fine saws....

Justin, you have thickened the plot - and Mr. Dykes (trying to return the respect jbd) has grabbed you by the arm and pulled you headfirst down the slippery slope! Mr. Dykes won't reveal how looooonnnngg the slope is and how far he has slipped He pulled me down a ways, too. Had to grab a branch just to take a breather.

Looks like you have a pretty good start on tools. John is probably still correct on the dovetail saw. He would be far better versed on that than I, but it seems for that size of dovetail, a different saw may do better. John has longer arms and his knuckles drag a little more than mine - I am a reforming power tool user that is dabbling in handtools.