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Thread: Jeez, another electrical question

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Veatch View Post
    Thank you, Roger. That chart is an eye-opener. I may just save that in my "wall-chart" folder.

    I notice that you don't get up to the 3HP rating with 6/L6 devices until you hit the 50 amp level.

    I assume from your comment on use as a disconnect there's no real problem involved in using a NEMA 6-20 plug/socket to feed a 3HP load as long as it's not used as a disconnect device. I'll have to remember not to unplug my 3HP table saw (NEMA 6-20, 2 HP L-L rating) while it's running.

    Now, I'm understanding why the electrician ran the 30 amp circuits for my air compressor and cyclone to disconnects rather than to 30 amp receptacles (5HP motors hardwired to the disconnects in both cases).

    Thanks, again.
    Yes the issue is whether you intend to disconnect the motor or not with the plug. Problem is who knows if you might or might not. I'm not sure if I have the issue nailed down perfectly but I am reasonably confident that sawstop is indeed not intended to be used with a plug being on a individual branch circuit as required. If I wired it I would do as your electrician did and land permanent wiring from the saw to a wall mounted disconnect.

  2. Quote Originally Posted by Tom Veatch View Post
    The reason I ask is because I do not recall ever seeing plugs and sockets rated for anything other than volts and amps and I've seen no negative comments regarding using power cords/plugs/sockets for 3HP and smaller motor loads.
    Tom your gut instincts are correct. A sure sign that someone is professing knowledge beyond their means is when they cite entire chapters of the NEC and not individual citations. They do this because they know that no one is ever going to challenge it because no one will be willing to spend the time to review an entire chapter. Most days, that is a good bet.

    Today is not a good day to make that bet. I have had a lot of sporatic down-time today waiting for floor adhesive to tack up between layings, and I did in fact read through the entire sections of the NEC that Roger cited. There is nothing in the NEC that supports Roger's assertions and citations.

    I don't know what UL has to say on the topic, but I also don't care what they have to say either. UL is not a regulatory agency, and has absolutely no bearing on wiring a tool into a home receptacle. If need be, I have a copy of UL 987 on my computer, and I can look this information up--not that it would matter. No, this is not the "cliff-notes" version that Roger is citing; this is the full version that manufacturers need to purchase when they want their tool UL listed.

    I need to go lay another batch of tile in the shop.

  3. Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Yes the issue is whether you intend to disconnect the motor or not with the plug. Problem is who knows if you might or might not. I'm not sure if I have the issue nailed down perfectly but I am reasonably confident that sawstop is indeed not intended to be used with a plug being on a individual branch circuit as required. If I wired it I would do as your electrician did and land permanent wiring from the saw to a wall mounted disconnect.
    I knew this was going to be the topic from NEC you would reference, and I did read this a couple hours ago. You need to go back and reread this part of code more carefully.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Fort Smith, Arkansas
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    1,985
    Quote Originally Posted by George Lohnes View Post
    Michael forgot to mention in his original post that this electrical connection was for an underpowered dust collector leading to the Festool tools on top of his Sawstop.

    [things seem to be quieting down on the post and just thought I could heat things up some more]
    While I don't have a saw stop or and Festool stuff, I do have an underpowered dust collector. Adding a circuit for a new dc system is what prompted the original question.
    I think everything is cool now. Every ones input was taken with gratitude. Got some very informed information from highly qualified members and it was all helpful.
    Thanks everyone. Mike

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Christopherson View Post
    Tom your gut instincts are correct. A sure sign that someone is professing knowledge beyond their means is when they cite entire chapters of the NEC and not individual citations. They do this because they know that no one is ever going to challenge it because no one will be willing to spend the time to review an entire chapter. Most days, that is a good bet.

    Today is not a good day to make that bet. I have had a lot of sporatic down-time today waiting for floor adhesive to tack up between layings, and I did in fact read through the entire sections of the NEC that Roger cited. There is nothing in the NEC that supports Roger's assertions and citations.

    I don't know what UL has to say on the topic, but I also don't care what they have to say either. UL is not a regulatory agency, and has absolutely no bearing on wiring a tool into a home receptacle. If need be, I have a copy of UL 987 on my computer, and I can look this information up--not that it would matter. No, this is not the "cliff-notes" version that Roger is citing; this is the full version that manufacturers need to purchase when they want their tool UL listed.

    I need to go lay another batch of tile in the shop.
    Try to get some rest Rick. Article to 210.2 (refers you to table 210.2 then 430 IX) (Article 422.34 Unit switch as a disconnect) I mentioned this only if you want to classify the saw as a motor driven appliance and then NEC 430.109(F).

    Remember this is all about why the manufacturer at sawstop is not allowing a 5 hp motor to be cord and plug on this saw. I believe it is because of disconnect issues. You say they are just stupid and I disagree. You say that UL is something that you would not believe because they are not regulatory yet the NEC certainly does. But you want to site UL 987 to void the UL white book table I listed. That same table you will find in your full blown version.

    I have no problem with cord and plug on this saw, the discussion is about the manual not allowing it to be so. I am walking a mile out of my way to give argument as to why the manufacturer is likely correct. You chose to insult me and everyone is supposed to take your word for it. I don't answer to you. If you have some documetation that proves the manufacturer is wrong on this saw then provide argument with code or something.

    I'll say this one last time I believe the manufactuerer is correct.. the saw should not be cord and plug. I may very well be eating crow in the end. I believe the manufacturer is protecting itself against using the cord and plug as a disconnecting means and backs that by the motor rules for cord and plug horsepower ratings for motor disconnects in 430.109(F). You have to take a stand somewhere right or wrong. But for you to state that manufacturers are notorious for wrong information is a stretch and middle of the road IMO. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wiring this saw under the rules of artcle 430.

    I don't think it is necessary and looking at it as just connecting the saw with an L series 30 amp I see no reason why not. I am simply trying to answer what I think the manufacturers reasoning is for not allowing cord and plug for their 5 hp 230 volt single phase saw. You keep wanting to imply that I am saying you cannot cord and plug this saw. You cannot looking at it from a means of disconnect with a nema L series plug and receptacle. I beleive this is why the restriction by the manufacturer... simple as that. Get over it.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    SF Bay Area, CA
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    15,332
    I think Rick and Roger can take a breather from this...I'd be happy to blow the froth off a couple with both ya'll and pick up the tab.

    Happy Electron Flow!
    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

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