How much variance should I expect in swatches?

[Russell Tribby]

I ordered some Ultima WR stain from Target Coatings this last week. The color my customer picked out was the Antique Maple (pictured)

I've applied the stain to some scrapes and the color is nowhere near what it looks like on the swatch or on this picture. In fact it's almost like I received a can of the Dutch Oak instead (http://www.targetcoatings.com/shop/p...lon-210-3.html). The color swatches that I have are alder which is what I've tested the stain on. I also put some on some birch ply and the results were the same. I applied it to bare wood and to some that had a washcoat on it. While it affected the absorption of the stain it didn't affect the color. How much variance should I expect between the swatches and the actual product? At this point I don't see the point of the swatches if they don't align with the actual color of the stain.

[Joe Chritz]

Hard to say but I generally ignore them and do samples because they can be all over the board as far as color goes.

That is probably the biggest reason I am sticking with stains I can get locally since it is pretty easy to get a small can to make some boards up.

Joe

[Russell Tribby]

I really like the Target Coatings products that I've used thus far but your point is well taken about buying products locally. I certainly feel like I wasted my money in buying the swatch set. I'll contact Target on Monday to see what I can do to get this resolved.

[Rob Cunningham]

The color swatches from Target are made from 1/4" ply (at least the oak and maple ones I have are) The ply absorbs the stain differently than solid wood. They are top coated with gloss USL which also affects the look. I have had the same issues with the swatches that you do. I always tell people that they are a reference only and the color will vary from depending on the wood.
Trans Tint dyes are great for "tweaking" the stain color. Make samples to show the customer.

[Jim Becker]

Rob brings up a good point in a round about way...you need to judge the color on your test pieces AFTER going through the rest of the finishing regimen including at least a application or two of your intended top coat. They will sometimes radically change the color. This is particularly true of water soluble dyes which look absolutely terrible naked on the wood!

[Russell Tribby]

Thanks for the advice. I did topcoat the samples and while it popped the color a bit more it didn't bring it anywhere close to the swatch/online picture. The test pieces I did were on 1/4" maple ply, 3/4" birch ply and some alder. I did pieces that had a washcoat and pieces without. The color stayed relatively the same. I went back and looked this morning and the Dutch Oak swatch is dead on with my sample pieces. As impossible as this seems I wonder if I got some stain that was mislabeled. My camera battery is charging right now but I'll post some pics in just a bit.
I understand that the swatches are just a loose reference but if the difference is this drastic they're useless to me and I might as well ask for a refund.

[mike holden]

Russell,
You will find some major differences in color on boards of the same species, but different trees. Trying to determine the end color based on anything but a sample of the wood you are using is a real crapshoot. Think about how matching colors is generally considered the hardest part of refinishing. Now, how are you gonna maintain the colors across the variety found even in a single species of wood? Heck, you cant even guarantee a paint color without knowing the primer color.
Sample boards from the material used for the project is the only way to determine what you gonna get.

BTW, I have not yet used the finishing colors that I thought I would. The sample boards have always led me down a different path. (dye color, topcoat, etc.)

Mike

[Russell Tribby]

[quote=mike holden;1045658]Russell,
You will find some major differences in color on boards of the same species, but different trees. Trying to determine the end color based on anything but a sample of the wood you are using is a real crapshoot. Think about how matching colors is generally considered the hardest part of refinishing. Now, how are you gonna maintain the colors across the variety found even in a single species of wood? Heck, you cant even guarantee a paint color without knowing the primer color.
Sample boards from the material used for the project is the only way to determine what you gonna get.

BTW, I have not yet used the finishing colors that I thought I would. The sample boards have always led me down a different path. (dye color, topcoat, etc.)

I agree with you Mike in regards to the idea that even boards of the same species accept stain differently. However, I've never seen such a huge discrepancy as this. I honestly think that the can I received was mislabeled. It's hard to tell from the pics but the sample is dead on with the color of Dutch Oak.

[Rob Cunningham]

It does look like you have the wrong stain. I suggest you contact Jeff at Target. Send him the pictures and see what he says. I'm sure he will help you out.

[Conrad Fiore]

Russell,
Did you dilute the stain, or is that full strength? That color you have looks like the WR40900 Golden Maple that I have used on a couple of projects, more on the amber/red side than brown of the 40300.

[Russell Tribby]

Russell,
Did you dilute the stain, or is that full strength? That color you have looks like the WR40900 Golden Maple that I have used on a couple of projects, more on the amber/red side than brown of the 40300.

I did not dilute the stain. The stain is very red compared to the antique maple sample swatch that I have.

[Russell Tribby]

I called Target Coatings today to see about getting a new can of stain and guess who answered the phone.......Jeff, the owner. I was quite surprised to say the least. I had a simlar experience with Akeda when I had a problem with my dovetail jig and was contacted by the president, Kevan Lear. Jeff was not only apologetic but assured me that this would be taken care of. In light of some of the more recent threads about poor customer service it is so nice to get service that speaks of the integrity of the company. This, after all, is over one quart of stain. I'm sure Jeff understands the magnitude of the effect that these forums can have on his business, after all it was here that I first learned of Target Coatings.

[glenn bradley]

It does look like you have the wrong stain. I suggest you contact Jeff at Target. Send him the pictures and see what he says. I'm sure he will help you out.

+1 with Rob. That (mis)match is way too close. I can relate as I am struggling with some Transtint. The tint is fine, I just hadn't figured on the ash having so much 'yellow' effect on the color. It looks great on oak. Too bad the piece is ash ;-)

[Rob Cunningham]

I've always found Jeff's customer service to be 100%