Why's everybody baggin' on IKEA?

[Jim Becker]

John, I don't understand it, either. My experience with Ikea...since they first came to the US with their first store near here, and with the exception of a single item, has been very positive. There low-end stuff is, well, low end. But the quality at the other end of the spectrum is quite good. And it's not all "particle board", either. My daughter's dresser is solid pine. The only non-pine component is the 1/4" MDF back panel. Bringing it home made my Highlander smell of pine for nearly a week. I have leather love seats and a matching chair that have been in service since the early 1990s and look nearly new outside of a few small scratches.

Their kitchen cabinet systems are extremely well engineered...the only downside is the lack of careful matching of lumber in doors and drawer fronts, but they have metal Blum drawers as well as Blumotion. The hanging rail system for upper cabinets is wonderful and with the advantage over a French cleat that you don't have to drop the cabinet slightly to allow for the fit over the cleat...nice when you don't want to do a crown molding.

My office desk system has been with me since the early 1990s, too. It also looks nearly new.

Do I consider them a purveyor of fine furniture? No. But I'll shop there for basics and "immediate needs" before I'd patronize a lot of the "regular" chain furniture stores which are truly selling inferior stuff for way too much money.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Yessir you are correct about that. Sad but true. But I won't be contributing to their success. I like technology as much as the next person, but I draw the line at the lack of quality.

I needed to convert my pool room into an office recently. Instead of buying a cheap set of glass and metal desks I bought two older solid Oak desks and converted one into a drafting table. I guess I just think like that. Probably the same reason I don't drop off a crew of unskilled workers to build decks at people's houses like 99.9% of the rest of the deckbuilders in our area.

We all draw the line at certain things in life....someday you will probably do the same.

Kelly, I wonder how far you actually take your claimed high and noble standards of where you, "Draw the line". I used to be a chef for a decade or so. I was very good at what I did and I worked in some pretty nice places up and down the West Coast. The places where I worked served excellent quality food and charged prices consistent with that quality. Yet, for some reason some people would decide to go to a cheaper place like Appleby's or some other corporate cookie cutter restaurant or even McDonald's. It sure didn't help our lunch or dinner business when another one of those slightly-better-than-fast-food places opened up nearby. They employ cooks without any special skills that work for less money and they don't use top notch ingredients. Hmmm...Starting to see the parallels here, Kelly?

So, when you go out to breakfast, lunch, or dinner do you always go out to the place where you support a true craftsman that serves the highest quality ingredients? Or do you sometimes draw that, "Line" of yours a little lower? Maybe you can save a few bucks, get it a little faster, make it a little more convenient and go for the trendy but cheap chain restaurant or maybe even hit up the fast food drive through. Yeah, that's what I thought. It sounds great to start preaching to everyone about your impeccably high standards but just how far do you actually carry that in your life? You may not eat out very often but if you ever have eaten at a less than top of the line restaurant then in essence you've also bought furniture from Ikea.

Some people just can't afford the best things in life all the time. Some people don't see the need to always strive for the best they can afford. I've never been to Ikea but from what it sounds like there are some guys on this forum who know what good furniture is and they feel the quality of Ikea isn't too bad after all. Yet there will always be someone claiming to have some sort of noble set of standards by which they live, sneering at the rest of us who don't. Well, the standards are noble until you ask them about how they spend the rest of their money...

Bruce

[John Schreiber]

Kelly, I wonder how far you actually take your claimed high and noble standards of where you, "Draw the line". I used to be a chef for a decade or so. I was very good at what I did and I worked in some pretty nice places up and down the West Coast. The places where I worked served excellent quality food and charged prices consistent with that quality. Yet, for some reason some people would decide to go to a cheaper place like Appleby's or some other corporate cookie cutter restaurant or even McDonald's. It sure didn't help our lunch or dinner business when another one of those slightly-better-than-fast-food places opened up nearby. They employ cooks without any special skills that work for less money and they don't use top notch ingredients. Hmmm...Starting to see the parallels here, Kelly?

So, when you go out to breakfast, lunch, or dinner do you always go out to the place where you support a true craftsman that serves the highest quality ingredients? Or do you sometimes draw that, "Line" of yours a little lower? Maybe you can save a few bucks, get it a little faster, make it a little more convenient and go for the trendy but cheap chain restaurant or maybe even hit up the fast food drive through. Yeah, that's what I thought. It sounds great to start preaching to everyone about your impeccably high standards but just how far do you actually carry that in your life? You may not eat out very often but if you ever have eaten at a less than top of the line restaurant then in essence you've also bought furniture from Ikea.

Some people just can't afford the best things in life all the time. Some people don't see the need to always strive for the best they can afford. I've never been to Ikea but from what it sounds like there are some guys on this forum who know what good furniture is and they feel the quality of Ikea isn't too bad after all. Yet there will always be someone claiming to have some sort of noble set of standards by which they live, sneering at the rest of us who don't. Well, the standards are noble until you ask them about how they spend the rest of their money...

Bruce

At first, this seems like a fair comparison, but I don't really think it is. Food by it's nature is disposable and different restaurants meet different needs.

Part of our confusion is the difference between fancy and high quality. Furniture like food can be either, neither or both. Craftsmanship is a separate axis and can present or absent.

Ikea has excellent, trendy design and quality ranges from medium to poor. A burger at McDonald's is not fancy, but my perception is that it is equal in quality to what you get at all but the very best restaurants. Neither involve craftsmanship.


I prefer high-quality long-lasting furniture with classic design over low quality furniture with trendy design. For example, most Shaker chairs were made on an assembly line basis.

I prefer restaurants which are locally owned and run whether they are high-end or low-end. Unfortunately, quality is more variable in local places than it is at the chains.


I make both of those choices because I don't want to live in a disposable society where personal relationships and objects are used for a little while, then thrown away. I prefer to reward craftsmanship, and some of my best memories are of food made by craftsmen-chefs (most in France, where even a ham sandwich is an artisan object), but I can seldom afford to.


I hope that makes sense. It's a complex and charged issue.

[Larry Edgerton]

Kelly, I wonder how far you actually take your claimed high and noble standards of where you, "Draw the line". I used to be a chef for a decade or so. I was very good at what I did and I worked in some pretty nice places up and down the West Coast. The places where I worked served excellent quality food and charged prices consistent with that quality. Yet, for some reason some people would decide to go to a cheaper place like Appleby's or some other corporate cookie cutter restaurant or even McDonald's. It sure didn't help our lunch or dinner business when another one of those slightly-better-than-fast-food places opened up nearby. They employ cooks without any special skills that work for less money and they don't use top notch ingredients. Hmmm...Starting to see the parallels here, Kelly?

So, when you go out to breakfast, lunch, or dinner do you always go out to the place where you support a true craftsman that serves the highest quality ingredients? Or do you sometimes draw that, "Line" of yours a little lower? Maybe you can save a few bucks, get it a little faster, make it a little more convenient and go for the trendy but cheap chain restaurant or maybe even hit up the fast food drive through. Yeah, that's what I thought. It sounds great to start preaching to everyone about your impeccably high standards but just how far do you actually carry that in your life? You may not eat out very often but if you ever have eaten at a less than top of the line restaurant then in essence you've also bought furniture from Ikea.

Some people just can't afford the best things in life all the time. Some people don't see the need to always strive for the best they can afford. I've never been to Ikea but from what it sounds like there are some guys on this forum who know what good furniture is and they feel the quality of Ikea isn't too bad after all. Yet there will always be someone claiming to have some sort of noble set of standards by which they live, sneering at the rest of us who don't. Well, the standards are noble until you ask them about how they spend the rest of their money...

Bruce

I made it through 2008 without doing business with any chains, with the exception of fuel, where we are at their mercy in my neighborhood. I have never bought a thing from WalMart, I eat at hole in the walls, and I order supplys from small companys, and I get better service because of it. It is a choice one can make, but I am only responsible for myself and the trail I leave behind.

I do what I do and I will not tell you what you should or should not do, and only ask the same.

I guess my question is why is a cheap furniture chain even being discussed at all on a forum that is dedicated to furthering the art of woodworking? Seems counterintuitive.

[Steve Mellott]

Several months ago, my wife asked me to make her several shelving units for her sewing room. I carefully calculated the wood requirements and headed to the lumber yard. On the way, I decided to stop at IKEA. The IKEA cost was significantly less than the cost of my materials alone and I thought the quality was fairly good so I bought the IKEA shelves. It's not heirloom quality, but for a sewing room, its fine. (I also checked with the Sagulator to ensure that the shelves wouldn't sag over time.) I also learned that the local quilt shop has used IKEA shelves in a commercial setting for a number of years and have been very happy with the quality.

Since then, I've also bought several of their kitchen cabinet carcasses and have been very happy with those. The hardware on the IKEA cabinets seems to be better than the hardware included on the cabinets that were professionally installed in our home several years ago.

I've used my saved money to buy more "toys" for my new lathe and have used my saved time to focus on other aspects of woodworking that I really enjoy (pen turning, scrollsawing, etc.).

Regardless of how you feel about imports/American or quality/non-quality, IKEA does an excellent job understanding their customer base and then marketing to them. I know people who go to the IKEA cafeteria even when they don't plan to do any shopping in the store. I also know people who take out ot town visitors to "tour" the IKEA store even when they don't plan to buy anything. The store has done a very good job of building a loyal customer base.

[Vic Damone]

I'm sure this isn't news to most of you but it may be worth a reread regarding any manufacture using this material.

"Glass LR, Connor TH, Theiss JC, Dallas CE, Matney TS.
Of the materials used in construction of buildings which can elute complex mixtures of organic compounds, products such as particle board are known to release formaldehyde into the indoor environment. We have employed a modification of the Ames Salmonella/microsome assay with both DNA repair-proficient and -deficient strains and determined that one such material, particle board, emitted mutagenic and genotoxic substances. The materials offgassing from the particle board demonstrated a dose-related response in both mutagenicity and toxicity. It was also observed that incubation at 37 degrees C produced a decrease in both endpoints which was related to time of incubation. In addition, detectable amounts of twelve other organic compounds were identified as offgassing from the incubated particle board.
PMID: 3520959 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"

[Charles P. Wright]

The stuff is built "just good enough" to sell, and sells cheaply, which works for some folks who have the need furnish a home but not the bank account, and god bless as it fills a marketing niche.

Either that or kids. If our kids draw on Ikea furniture or it gets destroyed from their abuse, there is no reason to be upset about it. If it was a piece of fine furniture that you spent lots of cash on, you are going to get upset.

[Jeff Caskie]

Regardless of how you feel about imports/American or quality/non-quality, IKEA does an excellent job understanding their customer base and then marketing to them. I know people who go to the IKEA cafeteria even when they don't plan to do any shopping in the store. I also know people who take out ot town visitors to "tour" the IKEA store even when they don't plan to buy anything. The store has done a very good job of building a loyal customer base.

I agree 100%. Just ate there last night as a matter of fact (due in part to this thread). It is better to go on a weekday though, as it is very crowded on the weekend.... with lots of kids crying etc.

I am one who loves the 'look' of Ikea furniture... especially their kitchens. If I were to build a kitchen, I would model it after one of theirs. The contemporary/modern look is more my style and I think they do a great job at it. It is a great place to walk around and get ideas and I always take newcomers who have never been.

I understand why those who make a living building furniture and/or kitchens would not like to be compared to Ikea. However, I think that it would a great resource for them to gather ideas and find ways to improve upon. I could say the same about furniture stores however, I hate walking in those. Salesmen/women watch you enter, follow you around and stalk you until they can go in for the kill. I hate that and can barely last 15min in one of those.

I also walk the isles of Lowes and Home Depot all the time looking at things and getting 'ideas'. Many people hate those stores as well... but not me. I do wish there was a local Woodcraft I could walk, but it is a hike to go to one of those...

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Kelly, I wonder how far you actually take your claimed high and noble standards of where you, "Draw the line". I used to be a chef for a decade or so. I was very good at what I did and I worked in some pretty nice places up and down the West Coast. The places where I worked served excellent quality food and charged prices consistent with that quality. Yet, for some reason some people would decide to go to a cheaper place like Appleby's or some other corporate cookie cutter restaurant or even McDonald's. It sure didn't help our lunch or dinner business when another one of those slightly-better-than-fast-food places opened up nearby. They employ cooks without any special skills that work for less money and they don't use top notch ingredients. Hmmm...Starting to see the parallels here, Kelly?

So, when you go out to breakfast, lunch, or dinner do you always go out to the place where you support a true craftsman that serves the highest quality ingredients? Or do you sometimes draw that, "Line" of yours a little lower? Maybe you can save a few bucks, get it a little faster, make it a little more convenient and go for the trendy but cheap chain restaurant or maybe even hit up the fast food drive through. Yeah, that's what I thought. It sounds great to start preaching to everyone about your impeccably high standards but just how far do you actually carry that in your life? You may not eat out very often but if you ever have eaten at a less than top of the line restaurant then in essence you've also bought furniture from Ikea.

Some people just can't afford the best things in life all the time. Some people don't see the need to always strive for the best they can afford. I've never been to Ikea but from what it sounds like there are some guys on this forum who know what good furniture is and they feel the quality of Ikea isn't too bad after all. Yet there will always be someone claiming to have some sort of noble set of standards by which they live, sneering at the rest of us who don't. Well, the standards are noble until you ask them about how they spend the rest of their money...


Bruce

Bruce...man you are sumpthin else with that attitude huh? Not only did you NOT even give me a chance to answer, but you haughtily assumed you were correct and answered for me....since I have the time, I'll bust your assumption wide open....might even get banned for this one, but here goes.

Maybe my post about Ikea wasn't a completely fair one since I've never been there. Didn't know that there was any real wood in the store. My perception of the store isn't good because of what I have seen from there in people's homes and that's been all junk. It was not directed at you in any way, but from your response I guess I hit a nerve.

I don't know how noble and I know I am nowhere near impeccable, but yes, I do live the dream. I spent 20+ years in the restaurant and bar biz. Worked at the Mansion in Dallas all the way down to Judge Roy Beans. I have worked in every star designation except 7. Spent over 6 years of that time as a chef myself in several small houses in Dallas. All were home owned. Worked in a chain twice in my life, both for very short stints.

I RARELY eat at chains anywhere...pretty much don't care for them. My usual haunts are places that have creative menus and those who have one or two units. My favorite steakhouse is in Rockwall, TX...a place called Culpeppers. They own the place next door [The Oar House].

I never go to McDonald's and am not a huge fan of fast food. Last week I ate at five different restaurants for lunch, none were fast foods and none were nationwide chains. I did meet Jim Becker at a Salt Grass once....it wasn't that bad at all, but I don't frequent them.

It goes further. I have never bought a new vehicle or a new house. I own mostly vintage stereo equipment with the exception of a 2001 Sony AV system. Even my speakers are 20+ year old Infinitys. I listen to mostly albums when it matters although I do have a ton of concert DVD's. There ya go....GUILTY! I buy old albums off the web and the DVD's I get come mostly from Amazon.

My house is a 109 year old veteran without a level floor anywhere. My daily driver is a 1970 Chevy truck and the playtoy I am building is a 1967. Most of my truck parts come from guys like me who rebuild them and trade parts. I cook at home mostly from two vintage smokers...one that is home built.

My bedroom is filled with my own rustic cedar furniture and the rest of the house is all used stuff that is very well made. Not one ounce of particleboard anywhere.

I prefer to help out the local heros over giving money to a chain store, but I do break the rules when it comes to lumber and supplies. I buy most of my decking, etc from Home Depot [large gasp huh Bruce?]. Yep, I do so because their treated pine is more stable than any yards' in town....and less expensive.

I buy tons of old tools...none of the staionary tools in my shop were new when bougtht, but the few I do buy new...Amazon again.

So there you have it. I guess before you go shootin' your mouth off again about what I do ya might better ask first, you might be surprised. Your response smacks of a personal attack that was totally uncalled for, especially since you don't know me. Your assumption did little more than show your butt in public.

[Darius Ferlas]

I like IKEA for the reusability of their furniture. About 10 years ago I furnished 2 bedrooms, a living room and a dining room with their furniture and I liked it. Functional, and reasonably well built. I moved twice since, and little got out of alignment. Whatever did was easilly fixed with one of their hex bits.

Some pieces were disappointing (hollow structure bookshelves or table top venneers). But at least I didn't spend a fortune and while most of the furniture is still in very good shape, if needed I have plenty of nice beech veneer material for drawer boxes, jigs and such.

Most mass produced European furniture is very similar to IKEA, but despite my overall satisfaction with it (considering the bang for the buck), I would rate IKEA as low to mid range quality in EU, i.e I've seen much better quality. It certainly is not as highly thought of in some of the countries where some of their products are manufactured.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Bruce...man you are sumpthin else with that attitude huh? Not only did you NOT even give me a chance to answer, but you haughtily assumed you were correct and answered for me....since I have the time, I'll bust your assumption wide open....might even get banned for this one, but here goes.

Maybe my post about Ikea wasn't a completely fair one since I've never been there.

Uhhh...What's your point again? I didn't get that far... But I do wonder what star designation goes up to 7 stars. I didn't think such a designation existed. Would that be in the AAA guide? "Yeah, but this one goes to 11." Take it easy, Kelly, which should be easy for you considering the impeccable life's resume you listed for me. I guess I should go back and read it since you went to all of that trouble and all...

Bruce

[Keith Outten]

I suggest that you guys turn this conversation around, that is all the warning you are going to receive.
.

[Alex Shanku]

I guess my question is why is a cheap furniture chain even being discussed at all on a forum that is dedicated to furthering the art of woodworking? Seems counterintuitive.

I agree. I just dont see the point. We all know that the quality of this furniture is lower than the stuff you can build yourself. Its cheap in price and many people want that. Not a "mystery" at all. Pretty clear, actually.

Why isnt this in the "Off-Topic" forum?

[Tony Bilello]

by letting the woodworkers know where the market is going. It's not just cheap furniture, there already is tons of cheap furniture manufacturers. It's also the style. People buy what they like. They are attracted to the 'look' with quality coming in second.
I am only a part-time furniture maker these days and the work requested is no different than when I had a large shop and was full time. Some people want new and different. As far as traditional style furniture goes, there are tons of manufacturers from the very cheap to the very expensive.
I dont think this post should be considered "off-topic". If it goes that direction, many members on here would not see it. I generally do not frequent the "off Topic" forum and many others also do not.

[Chris Padilla]

John, I don't understand it, either. My experience with Ikea...since they first came to the US with their first store near here, and with the exception of a single item, has been very positive. There low-end stuff is, well, low end. But the quality at the other end of the spectrum is quite good. And it's not all "particle board", either. My daughter's dresser is solid pine. The only non-pine component is the 1/4" MDF back panel. Bringing it home made my Highlander smell of pine for nearly a week. I have leather love seats and a matching chair that have been in service since the early 1990s and look nearly new outside of a few small scratches.

Their kitchen cabinet systems are extremely well engineered...the only downside is the lack of careful matching of lumber in doors and drawer fronts, but they have metal Blum drawers as well as Blumotion. The hanging rail system for upper cabinets is wonderful and with the advantage over a French cleat that you don't have to drop the cabinet slightly to allow for the fit over the cleat...nice when you don't want to do a crown molding.

My office desk system has been with me since the early 1990s, too. It also looks nearly new.

Do I consider them a purveyor of fine furniture? No. But I'll shop there for basics and "immediate needs" before I'd patronize a lot of the "regular" chain furniture stores which are truly selling inferior stuff for way too much money.

Ikea is pretty cool, I must admit. It is an interesting "warehouse" setup; the organization of their products is nice. It is a clean, well run business and I can understand the allure when the prices seem "too good to be true."

We have one item in our house from Ikea and it is a shelving unit that lives in my wife's sewing room. It fits well, works well, and I suspect it'll last quite a long time being in there. One thing Ikea has provided us is design ideas. We got the Tansu idea from Ikea!! We saw something like it there she wanted to buy, I said, "No way, I can build something nicer" and such the design was born.

They also have wonderful, cheap (think Costco) food: hot dogs, cinammon rolls, etc.