Japanese Mortice Chisel recommendations, please

[Howard Pollack]

Hi-
I'd like to purchase a couple of Japanese mortise chisels, but I have no ideas about how to judge their relative quality. Are there some brands that folks particularly like? What about brands to avoid? Thanks. -Howrd

[Lloyd Robins]

According to Harrelson Stanley the Tasai is the best mortise chisel (He sells them of course. but he also sells other mortising chisels.) Try this URL
http://www.japanesetools.com/tools/t.../mortising.php . Very expensive, but beautiful chisels. Last week there was a full set of motising chisels for sale on ebay, so you might watch there as you go. Joel at www.toolsforworkingwood.com sells Iyoroi chisels which are much less expensive. If you call Joel, he is a font of information and has never steered me wrong yet.

No I don't work for either company, but I do own a Tasai chisel and like it. My other chisels are from Joel.

[Steven Wilson]

There are two merchants whom I'm done business with whose Japanese chisel recommendations I would trust; Joel at www.toolsforworkingwood.com, and Harelson Stanley at www.japanesetools.com . I was looking for some specialty chisels to compliment my collection of bench chisels and Harelson Stanley came up with some fine recommendations; a small number of very good chisels that would meet my requirements (cleaning out dovetails, and paring chisels). The chisels were not cheap but the total cost was reasonable as he was able to recommend a couple of chisels the combined would cover a lot of ground. Having said that, Harelson does carry some exquisite examples of the chisel makers art with prices to match but then that's a different story.

I don't think that Joel or Harelson sell a "bad" Japanese chisel

[Tim Sproul]

Howard,


I recently was looking for mortise chisels as well....Here is what I wrote up in another place - some smilies and such don't copy/paste:

"Following up on a previous post....

And many thanks to Kanna User for providing chisels (other than the Iyoroi) and a bench and food and drink along with allowing many others to meet at his place .

And take my "review" with the grain of salt that I'm no expert.

I put some mortise chisels through a bit of a work out. Me, a bench, a board of jatoba, a hammer, and some chisels. Who said hand tools are quiet?

The test was just pounding and levering waste. I had the 15 mm Iyoroi, a 1/2 inch prototype Lie Nielsen A2 steel mortise chisel and a 15 mm Tasai mortise chisel. Kanna has many other japanese mortise chisels....but for this relative newby those were a bit on the "too much" end .

Happy to say all three chisels performed very well. However, I was surprised to find the Lie Nielsen edge folded over after about 6 inches worth of mortising. The Iyoroi and the Tasai didn't show any chipping or rolling. I stopped before I could get either the Iyoroi or Tasai to show and edge failure by eye or performance. Perhaps 8 to 10 inches worth of mortise?

In defense of the Lie Nielsen, it is a bit narrower chisel (12.5 mm vs 15mm) and I likely was pounding it a bit deeper than the other 2, wider chisels....which might explain the edge failure since I'd be levering deeper chips. Wasn't paying that close attention to my work as there was quite a bit of activity going on in Kanna User's shop....I'd also say the Lie Nielsen was the best balanced of the 3 chisels. And for those wondering if an unhooped handle was a good idea or not - don't worry, you'll not have splitting problems. I was using a 20oz metal hammer and didn't even leave a mark nor flatten the slightly domed end grain
.
Also, on a user note - I really do prefer the shorter length of these 3 mortise chisels - really about the same overall length as a typical bench chisel - compared to the sash mortise chisels. I hold the blade close to the cutting edge since this allows me to more quickly and more accurately move the chisel as I pound and lever, pound and lever..... The shorter length lets me concentrate on where I place the chisel without ever having to look up away from the mortise to find where to strike the handle.


Yeah...no pictures, didn't happen. Dan Moening took some shots during some of the ongoings.....hopefully he'll post."

Here is a link

The Iyoroi are available from Joel at the "museum" toolsforwoodworking.com and Tasai are available from Harrelson at japanesetools.com and the LN are not available yet. And "Kanna User" is Manny Hernandez on this forum. I have since ordered up a few more Iyoroi mortise chisels from Joel.

[Pam Niedermayer]

It's important to know why good Japanese mortising chisels are excellent performers. To wit, look carefully at the shape. The back of the chisel with the cutting steel lamination is slightly wider than the front; so you have a trapezoid rather than a rectangular form. This is important because this shape both cuts and clears the wood. Be careful of the arrises formed by the back and sides, they're very, very sharp.

It's also important that the shaft be an absolutely straight extension of the handle and tang. And it matters a lot how the steel lamination is laid down. This is a fairly difficult task for the smith, but it does matter whether the cutting steel is evenly laid and whether the cutting steel wraps up the sides properly (so the arrises are of cutting steel).

Based on these considerations, Tasai (japanesetools.com) and Imai (http://www.hidatool.com/woodpage/chisel/fmortise.html and http://www.misugidesigns.com/tools5.html) are generally considered superior. I'm also just beginning to use a Genju Funahiro mortising chisel from Hida (not in their online catalog, just received this last week, call them), for which I have great hopes.

If you and/or your vendor are very careful in picking out the good chisels, Iyoroi can also be excellent. I'd recommend Joel for this job, but be sure and ask him to choose carefully for you.

Last but not least are the very old western style mortising chisels, PS&W and Witherby, for example. They, too, are shaped similarly to the Japanese, often they're laminated; but even if they're solid steel, they're very good.

Also, if you haven't already, I strongly recommend Kingshott's video "Mortise and Tenon Made Simple." If you're going to spend all this money on tools, may as well train the tool user properly.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

[QUOTE=Martin Shupe]You need to PM Pam Neidermeyer...hope I spelled that correctly. She is, I think, the resident expert on Japanese chisels.[/QUOTE

Thanks, Martin, but there are several others here who know Japanese tools in depth, too, like Wiley and Manny for starters.

Pam Niedermayer

[Chris Thompson]

So, what's all this I hear about japanese chisels being harder, and therefore more brittle? I can't recall if I read it here or on another forum, but I'd swear I saw someone recommend throwing a japanese chisel in your 325F oven to soften ever so slightly before using.

Of course, that never made much sense to me, far too many people swear by japanese chisels for them to be brittle to the point of being bad.

I haven't got a problem with good tools costing more, but the prices on these japanese chisels is just boggling.

I'll go ahead and ask the loaded question.

What does a Tasai chisel do that a western chisel doesn't? (Other than look exceptionally gorgeous. I love folded steel.) I'm in the market for bevel edge chisels for dovetail work.

At japanwoodworker.com, I've got a Tasai Cabinet Maker's chisel at $96, A Tasai/Shinogi Dovetail Chisel at $103, and an awe inspiring, jaw dropping Mokume folded steel "Wood Grain" chisel at $239 (Not to mention a few they don't even price online.) All at 12mm.

At toolsforworkingwood, I've got an Ashley Isles 1/2" for $22.50, Two Cherries 12mm for $20.50, and Sorby 13mm for $36.

I understand the functional difference between western and japanese saws, but what's different between western and japanese chisels?

[Tim Sproul]

So, what's all this I hear about japanese chisels being harder, and therefore more brittle?

Yes, the cutting steel is harder than typical Western steels used for chisels or irons. You *may* need to increase the bevel angle to help strengthen the cutting edge....but it depends a lot upon what wood you work and your technique, among the myriad of factors.

I haven't got a problem with good tools costing more, but the prices on these japanese chisels is just boggling.

Not all....I think the Iyoroi mortise chisels give very good value. They are not $20 chisels....but neither are very good Western chisels.

For bench chisels....I have the Lowe's *special* Marples, a set of Hirsch (which are the same steel and such as 2 cherries) and a couple Matsumura blue steel (thanks Michael!). The Hirsch are very good chisel...the Matsumura are also a very good chisel. I find the steel to be better in the Matsumura - I (even though I'm not so good at it....) can get a better initial edge on the Matsumura. How do the edges hold up? Perhaps the same....perhaps not. I've not compared them. But the edges fail very differently. The Hirsch tend (not always) to fold over. The Matsumura tend to get microchips at the edge. Which do you prefer to resharpen?

I understand the functional difference between western and japanese saws, but what's different between western and japanese chisels

The steel...the construction...the feel in hand...the feel in use. You won't go wrong either way, just like saws. Good tools are good tools. It might be argued that the finest Japanese chisels are a bit better than the finest Western....but really, do you think you're so good at woodworking that you'd be able to make use of that difference? I'm no where close to that. I can tell the difference between a junky tool and a good one. But after good...they're all the same to me. Kind of like wine, I know good wine and bad wine. But I couldn't tell the difference between a finely aged $500 bottle of cabernet and a $30 bottle. I just know they both taste yummy and make my head spin after a bottle .

[Dan Moening]

...I couldn't tell the difference between a finely aged $500 bottle of cabernet and a $30 bottle...

Aha! Something I can teach Tim!

I have 2 sets of Marples Blue Chips and have used them long enough, in enough different species of woods to know I want/need a better chisel. Will 2Cherries be enough for me at this point in my experience? Probably. I've also had the opportunity to use some very nice Japanese chisels and know that I would appreciate all that they have to offer (at their mid price point). Also for me, they look and feel great in my small hands.

Chris, it may very well be that we are so very fortunate here to be within driving distance of 2 of the best places to obtain Japanese chisels (The Japan Woodworker in Alameda, and Hida Tool in Berkeley). Being a customer in these stores is like being on honored guest in ones home...you are very well taken care of. Looking a pretty pictures on a website is one thing, but to hold the chisel in your hand...feel its heft...the balance...they seem to have a soul...

[Pam Niedermayer]

So, what's all this I hear about japanese chisels being harder, and therefore more brittle? I can't recall if I read it here or on another forum, but I'd swear I saw someone recommend throwing a japanese chisel in your 325F oven to soften ever so slightly before using.

They can be brittle, especially when new. As they are used, they tend to get tougher, sort of a work hardening, but I'm no metallurgist. It means you don't use a bench chisel to chop mortises.

At japanwoodworker.com, I've got a Tasai Cabinet Maker's chisel at $96, A Tasai/Shinogi Dovetail Chisel at $103, and an awe inspiring, jaw dropping Mokume folded steel "Wood Grain" chisel at $239 (Not to mention a few they don't even price online.) All at 12mm.

According to Harrelson at Hiraide, mokume, while beautiful, adds nothing to the performance of the tool. There is one exception to this, there are some very narrow necked chisels he has where the mokume serves to strengthen the neck.

I don't see the point in comparing cabinet maker's chisels to shinogi chisels, they are different, intended for different tasks.

I understand the functional difference between western and japanese saws, but what's different between western and japanese chisels?

See my message above.

Pam

[Tim Sproul]

Dan,

You sure you have blue chips? They are forged and have been reported to be a pretty good chisel.

You haven't told me the difference in wines yet

[Dan Moening]

You sure you have blue chips?

Well, no

To be fair, they pare well enough but I've had some edge failure in harder woods. Additionally, the edge hasn't held up for as long as I'd like.

Learning the difference between a $300 bottle and a $30 bottle isn't something that you can be told...you have to experience it ... and the experience will cost you $400

[Tim Sproul]

You sure you have blue chips?
Learning the difference between a $300 bottle and a $30 bottle isn't something that you can be told...you have to experience it ... and the experience will cost you $400

You use some funny math

The chisels should be printed with some information on the front of the chisel blade. Blue Chips have a "Hand Forged" or "Forged" printing on them. Otherwise, you've likely got the lesser Marples chisel(s).