Delta 50-850...

[John Grabowski]

I am looking for some help with my new, used delta dust collector. I love the suction, hate the filtration...I need a 1 micron bag or canister to go on top...Any ideas on a make and model that I can use for easy success?

Thanks,

John G

[Ken Werner]

Wynn makes some good filters. I have the same DC and it works great with one. They sell direct. Should be able to google them.

I first used an Oneida 1 micron oversize bag. The filter canister is way better.

Ken

[Bruce Page]

I mounted a pair of .5 (I think) felt bags from Penn State on mine and have been happy with the performance.

That said, if I were to do it again, I’d go the pleated canister route.

[Michael Poller]

I would recommend the Wynne canister filters for sure if they fit your DC.

I bought the Harbor Freight '2HP' collector and added the Wynne pleated filter and plastic lower bag. What a difference over the old cloth style bags that HF unit came with.

Significantly improved dust collection and noticeably less fine dust in the air when I'm done using the table saw with it.

[Jason Beam]

Another for the Wynn!

http://www.wynnenv.com/

Give 'em a call and tell 'em the model you have. Rick Wynn will set you up 100% perfectly. I'd go with the fabric over the paper if you have a choice, it's just much more durable

[David Hostetler]

Another vote for Wynn Environmental.

Check out the 35A kits, they have one in a paper element, and one in a spun bond polyester. The poly is washable, but costs more... Well worth it if you are more than just a once in a blue moon woodworker...

I put one on my HF 2HP DC... I didn't even bother firing up the DC before the Wynn was installed.

[Brian Smith3]

I have the 50-850a with the canister, works well. I don't know of the Wynn filter but the OEM replacement for your filter is the 50-750 from Delta.
http://www.amazon.com/Delta-50-750-C...5?ie=UTF8&s=hi

A fair amount of dough but it will work.

[David Hostetler]

The problem I would see with that Delta canister filter, and a HUGE reason I bought the HF DC / Wynn combo is filtration rating. The Delta is 2 micron, and mucho dinero at $265.17.

The Wynn is $143.00 + S&H, and is rated at .5 (that's POINT five, not five) micron filtration. (Spun bond is 1 micron). You will need shorter turnbuckles with the Delta than what ships with the filter, but no big deal... Mabye $10.00 at ace hardware for 3 of them...

Honestly, I was seriously considering the Delta 50-760 when I bought my HF DC, but the cost of buying one, and then upgrading it to a 1 micron canister was too much for my budget...

The application notes from the Wynn Environmental site show...

Delta 50-850- This unit is similar, if not identical to the newer style Jet 1200. The Turnbuckles end up being too long, so you should either bend the hooks on the turnbuckles, install shims inside the filter lip, or add angle clips per LD http://www.wynnenv.com/lds_photos.htm

The link to the 35A kit page is http://www.wynnenv.com/35A_series_cartridge_kit.htm

[Mark Carlson]

I have a 50-760 and havn't switched to the Wynn filters because I read on another forum that cartridge filters on single stage dust collectors get clogged really fast and are hard to unclog. Anyone experienced this problem with the Wynn?

This thread got me thinking about switching from a bag because this weekend I gently whacked my upper bag with the DC running and could see a plum of dust come out of it each time I did it. That didn't seem good.

~mark

[David Hostetler]

Build and install Phil Thien's baffle...

Not sure where you got the idea canisters get clogged faster than bags though... Think of it this way. How many square foot of 1 micron filtering area does a bag provide? How many square foot of 1 micron filter area does a pleated canister provide?

I am taking a W.A.G. here and saying I think the ratio is somewhere around 5 to 1.. I read somewhere it is more like 10 to 1, but I don't quite buy that... Now given the same quantity of material to be filtered, which would logically get plugged quicker?

Bag, or canister, it is best to keep the big chips entirely from getting to the filter, pointy pieces can poke holes... And ultra fines can build up and plug filters of either type pretty fast... So you need SOMETHING to help...

The idea behind cyclones is just that. Keep the filter clean so that they don't get plugged, and therefore you don't suffer the reduction in CFM that a stopped up filter causes.

Now given all the $$ and space you could want, a Clear Vue or similar true cyclone is your best bet... But without that... you want to simulate the cyclone action in a single stage system, without scrubbing, which is the tendency for separators to pull separated material back into the air stream and in turn to the filter.

Bill Pentz on his web site advocates a neutral vane which is basically a tube that extends the inlet well into the inlet ring. And while I have a great deal of respect for Bill and his exhaustive work, from the experiences I have had in my own research and discussion with several very qualified engineers, I do not think the Neutral vane is enough. Yes it does help the cyclonic stream, but it fails to prevent scrubbing...

Phil Thien's cyclone baffle design promotes the cyclonic action, while the solid center of it prevents the big chips, and nearly all of the fines from scrubbing...

And FWIW, from what I have read, a neutral vane, and a Thien baffle are mutually exclusive. If you use one, do not use the other...

[Mark Carlson]

Everytime someone talks about putting a cartridge filter on a single stage dust collector someone will chime in that its not a good idea. A quick google search of "Wynn Filter clogging" will give you more information. Some seem to think its the best thing since sliced toast and others think its a terrible idea. I'm not sure.

My experience with a 1hp Penn State dust collector wasn't good when I converted to a cartridge. The 1st one had no flapper and had screening on the inside. Impossible to clean. The 2nd was better with no screening and a flapper but still not great when it came to cleaning. The dust would get in between the pleats and it was a bear to get it out. I ended up using my shop vac every week to clean it and ended up damaging it.

More surface area on a filter is great but if the filter quickly clogs and can't be easily cleaned out its not really a good solution.

Pre seperating with the Phil Thien baffle might be what I'm looking for. Someday I'll get that clearvue cyclone.


~mark

Build and install Phil Thien's baffle...

Not sure where you got the idea canisters get clogged faster than bags though... Think of it this way. How many square foot of 1 micron filtering area does a bag provide? How many square foot of 1 micron filter area does a pleated canister provide?

I am taking a W.A.G. here and saying I think the ratio is somewhere around 5 to 1.. I read somewhere it is more like 10 to 1, but I don't quite buy that... Now given the same quantity of material to be filtered, which would logically get plugged quicker?

Bag, or canister, it is best to keep the big chips entirely from getting to the filter, pointy pieces can poke holes... And ultra fines can build up and plug filters of either type pretty fast... So you need SOMETHING to help...

The idea behind cyclones is just that. Keep the filter clean so that they don't get plugged, and therefore you don't suffer the reduction in CFM that a stopped up filter causes.

Now given all the $$ and space you could want, a Clear Vue or similar true cyclone is your best bet... But without that... you want to simulate the cyclone action in a single stage system, without scrubbing, which is the tendency for separators to pull separated material back into the air stream and in turn to the filter.

Bill Pentz on his web site advocates a neutral vane which is basically a tube that extends the inlet well into the inlet ring. And while I have a great deal of respect for Bill and his exhaustive work, from the experiences I have had in my own research and discussion with several very qualified engineers, I do not think the Neutral vane is enough. Yes it does help the cyclonic stream, but it fails to prevent scrubbing...

Phil Thien's cyclone baffle design promotes the cyclonic action, while the solid center of it prevents the big chips, and nearly all of the fines from scrubbing...

And FWIW, from what I have read, a neutral vane, and a Thien baffle are mutually exclusive. If you use one, do not use the other...

[John Grabowski]

Thanks for all the good info...I would really like to have one with a flapper for easy cleaning. I guess ultimately, money will be the deciding factor.

Thanks,

John G

[David Hostetler]

Everytime someone talks about putting a cartridge filter on a single stage dust collector someone will chime in that its not a good idea. A quick google search of "Wynn Filter clogging" will give you more information. Some seem to think its the best thing since sliced toast and others think its a terrible idea. I'm not sure.

My experience with a 1hp Penn State dust collector wasn't good when I converted to a cartridge. The 1st one had no flapper and had screening on the inside. Impossible to clean. The 2nd was better with no screening and a flapper but still not great when it came to cleaning. The dust would get in between the pleats and it was a bear to get it out. I ended up using my shop vac every week to clean it and ended up damaging it.

More surface area on a filter is great but if the filter quickly clogs and can't be easily cleaned out its not really a good solution.

Pre seperating with the Phil Thien baffle might be what I'm looking for. Someday I'll get that clearvue cyclone.


~mark

Mind you, I am no expert, but from all I can tell, Bill Pentz is widely considered to be an expert in the field of workshop dust collection and control.

http://www.billpentz.com/woodworking...Conversion.cfm

I quote sections 3 and 4 of the above linked page...

"The good quality bags that actually provide their rated level of filtering are still not a good solution. Like cartridges, fine filter bags provide better filtering and much more airflow by using much finer filtering threads. Unlike cartridges, few bag sets have more than 30 square feet of surface area which is far less area than really needed to keep from having a constant cleaning problem. Cleaning wears out our filters making them more porous so they pass more and larger dust particles. With under one tenth the filter area and roughly double the cost, fine filter bags also have over ten times the resistance and need over ten times the cleaning to stay similarly effective. Resistance kills the airflow we need to capture the fine dust. Cleaning takes time and quickly wears out filters. "

"Although a number of hobbyist vendors now offer cartridge filtered based dust collectors, my hopes for these units providing significant help collapsed. The best of these makers still only use a real 2.0-micron filter allowing most of the finest unhealthiest dust to pass right through. The fancy paddles, flappers, and other cleaning systems offered on these units are there because these units have a basic design flaw. They allow everything to blow right up into the filters. This means that the cartridge filters quickly plug and need constant cleaning. That tradeoff appeared acceptable to me at first until I continued my testing and found the cleaning quickly wore out the filters and the high velocity chips poked holes into the cartridge filters. With thousands of new larger holes after every use and the cleaner making that even worse, soon these fine filters end up passing all that the old dusty bags passed. You can tell when you have a problem when your shop again has a coating of fine dust everywhere. These units need a fine screen in addition to their more coarse support screen to block these hits and much finer 0.5-micron filters before they would get my blessings. Trying to protect a cartridge filter with a traditional trashcan separator does not work useless unless you strangle your collector airflow with 4" pipe. If you use the 6" ducting and 800 CFM that you need to get the finest unhealthiest dust, the airspeed will be so high it will scour the trashcan separators clean of all but large blocks. It takes a trashcan separator that is about 5’2” in diameter and 7’ tall to handle 800 CFM."

And following subsection G.

" The next best approach is to convert your older dust collector to a cartridge filter. The problems with this approach is many early and less expensive dust collectors do not move enough air and they do not have a usable separation ring, so the filters will get plugged and ruined quickly. The best conversion is to follow my directions below with a large surface area fine filter using a fine screen to keep the larger chips from plugging the filter and punching holes in it. Replacing the original bags with a top quality cartridge filter from the various hobbyist vendors made for these conversions works, but all of the existing conversion cartridges and new hobbyist units are only offering 2-micron or worse filtering. With the worst health damage caused by 2.5-micron and smaller sized particles, these don’t offer much protection. That’s why I recommend using certified 0.5-micron or better yet 0.2-micron cartridge filters. With my support Wynn Environmental developed a new 0.5-micron wide pleated filter designed to mount right on most 1.5 hp to 2 hp dust collectors. They make this filter in the same paper poly blend that most other makers offer, and offer it in the far superior all poly version. Take a look at their solution by clicking here!"


And subsection G.9 bullets A through D.


"

2. If your dust collector does not have a separator ring, you need to add one. It should be tapered so the dust falls down into the bottom bag. The hole diameter should be 1/2 the diameter of your round bag tree assembly.
3. Shorten the mounting bracket. Rather then simply crosscutting the board, miter cut it so that it's bottom edge extends into the air stream as little as possible.
4. Mount a cleaning paddle to the threaded rod running down the center of the cartridge. It's 7 or so inches in diameter, extends the entire length of the filter, but does NOT touch the filter itself. It's made out of 1/4 inch plywood. If you get a plug, simply turn the threaded rod, and the paddle breaks the clog up and it drops into the lower bag.
5. Install a neutral vane."
   

I will disagree to a LIMITED extent with Bill on the neutral vane. The NV is effective at reducing the amount of fines that get to the filter, and eliminates the large chunks from getting there to a certain limit. A neutral vane does NOT address the problem of scrubbing, which is the cyclone action created pulling material from the bag and up into the filter. This tendency gets worse as the bag fills and material is closer to the cyclone action the NV creates... A better solution from what I have observed is Phil Thien's baffle design installed as either a pre separator or an add in separator in the inlet ring. I brag on these a LOT not because I am just going with internet wisdom as it were, but because I have tried them, and am very happy with the results.

Yes, a cartridge filter will plug up, sure... I hadn't thought of the reason felt bags don't plug up as badly... They flex...

For my money, I am sticking with a Wynn filter, Thien cyclone baffle. The filter beater isn't neccesary though. Once the DC is off, just tap the top corners of the cartridge a couple of times with the palm of your hand and any cake drops into the bag...

[Joel Earl]

Personally I would go with a large over-sized bag on top and trash can on the bottom over a Wynn setup the same way normally, having had both at one time or another on the same DC's.
Now that the big AFF or similar bags have exceeded the cost of the Wynn I'll reverse my thoughts and say cartridge. And that Wynn has a great one at decent price

I think the cartridge is equal in performance in most real world apps to a big over-sized bag, and way better than any standard bags I've ever had. I hated with a passion cleaning the cartridge - maybe if I had a flapper in it I would feel different. The big bag gets a whack or two when needed and it's done. Simple as can be

Just me maybe and the cartridge takes less space too - another positive. They are louder IMO by a fair amount if that matters to anyone.

Paying better than $150 for just the big top bag is to much so the extra noise I would live with.

[Mark Carlson]

My plan is to make a Thien baffle with 5in hookups and then get a Wynn filter.

~mark