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Thread: Old Planes

  1. #1
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    Old Planes

    Previous to the recent purchase of my first planes I did a lot of research on this forum and benefited greatly from the advice I was given (thanks again). Ended up starting my plane collection with Lie Nielson low angle block and jack planes. During that research I learned that old Stanley Bailey planes were cherished somwhat by the real neanders. So, when I stumbled into an opportunity to get my hands on a #4 and #6 I figured I couldn't pass it up, even if only to get them into the hands of a SMC brother who would appreciate them. Bad pics below, if useful I'll take more with a camera (vs. phone). I got them from a very accomplished woodworker who just got too old to do it any more. What are these worth? Would it benefit me much to clean them up? The blemishises seem pretty superficial and they're both as flat as my jointer table. What does one need to know about them to be comfortable buying them, and what do I need to know to assess their value? One thing that puzzled me is the blades aren't as thick as my new LNs. Anyway, your thoughts would be much appreciated. I'm sure they'd be valued more in someone elses hands and I'd love to make a little money help build my LN collection.
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  2. #2
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    As for value, I'm not sure! But regarding the blades being thiner than your new LN, that is not a problem... You have some choices there, you could(or the person who will get them) keep the blades since they look almost full lenght and tuned them up perfectly. Or buy some Hock blades and chip brakers to have as good a plane( some peope would say better...) as your LN plane. I have a few old plane and on two of them, a #8 and #6, I have upgraded to Hock blades and chip brakers and it does a wonderfull job!
    since you have them, I would deffinatly keep them until you get the money to buy other LN(like you wish), these two sizes of plane ar realy use full!
    David

  3. #3
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    Jim Koepke, seems to be the one around here who knows a lot about old planes. I'm sure when he sees the thread, he will reply some thing! I hoppe so anyway!
    David

  4. #4
    First step is to determine their vintage (expressed as a "type").

    Follow this link:
    http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/sta...ing/index.html

    Then choose "One-Page Plane Dating Flowchart." Follow the chart to determine the type. Due to variations in quality over the years, the type will make a big difference.

  5. #5
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    Dave,

    Both planes appear to be Stanley "Bailey" style planes which are very common. They are worth, probably, between $20 and $30 each - the #6 less than the #4 because it is a little rusty. Both should clean up nicely and make excellent users. If you are just getting interested in planes and hand tools, my recommendation is to buy them (if the price is right), clean them up and use them yourself. You could upgrade the blades and chipbreakers with Hocks or Lie-Nilesens (LN makes replacement blades and chipbreakers for old Stanleys too) but its not necessary to make them perfectly functional planes. The #4 smoother is one of the most common planes around because it finds so many uses. The #6 a little less so because it falls in between a smoother (like the#4) and a jointer (like a #7 or #8). The #6 is called a "fore" plane because it was traditionally used after a scrub plane or a #5 to bring stock to rough dimensions "before" the stock was staightened and flattened with a jointer plane and finally smoothed with a smoother. Most people nowdays use machinery to staighten, flatten and dimension stock, so the #6 has lost it's traditional job to electron burners. It is still, however, a useful plane. It can be tuned to take a fine shaving and can, therefore, be used as a small jointer for shorter stock or a big smoother for large panels.

    My $.02.

    Hank

  6. #6
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    Hi Dave,

    Just my opinion but I have picked up a few planes from antique shops and eBay. I don’t know how much you know about eBay but here are my thoughts:

    Current pricing is based on many factors but comes down to what someone is willing to pay. Take a look at similar items on eBay to see what they are going for. Throw out extreme highs and lows - there's always some unbelievable deal or someone willing to pay too much. Often you cannot get a real sense of the price until the auction is about to end. I never bid until the last hour or so. eBay will let you view auctions that have ended. On the advanced search page there is a “Completed listings” option but I believe you need to be a registered user to access this.

    Pay attention to condition - especially corrosion, chips and dings, missing/broken parts. Light rust is not a big deal but very heavy rust leaves pits. Broken knobs and totes mean repairing, replacing or making new ones.

    Just try to compare planes in similar condition, and of the same type as yours. Jim Kopeke knows much more about this than me but I’m guessing type 16 – 1933 to 1941. Raised ring, high knob, kidney shaped hole in the lever cap. Maybe type 15? Frankenplane – Jim?

    If these images are typical of the overall condition of these planes then both look to be very restorable. If you want to sell I think you can do a little better than 20 to 30 each. Be careful about the level of cleaning/restoring you do. Clean to one person is destroying wonderful patina to another.

    Good luck and most important - have fun with it! I enjoy this, you may find it's a PITA

    .
    RD

  7. #7

    solid old planes

    The #6 is my best go-to plane. It's a powerful, versatile plane that will both hog off lots, or finely set will make jointing a pleasure. From the pic, though not real clear, the #6 appears to be a WW2 production. I used to think these inferior--but not all. The frog mounts solid to the sole; so, once you've got it set it really works well. The #4 is a solid quality user, as well. The kidney lever cap indicates 1933 or later.

    These old planes could perform just as well for you as a LN or a LV. The problem of buying old planes randomly (e-bay) is that you've got no assurance that it's not damaged or modified. Likewise, unless someone who knows how to fettle planes sells you one, it's your job to do so.

    In the end, a plane works well, or not, because the blade is really sharp. Sharp blades are the key. So, save your pennies for a slow speed grinder--okay, I'll be biased b/c of my mistakes, just buy the Woodcraft slow speed grinder with its two better grit wheels.

    Yes, I do get chatter on some old planes, and some won't keep a fine setting. Sargents and Millers Falls can be excellent users, as are Ohio, Keen Kutter, Corsair, and Blue label Craftsman.

    Typically, a knowledgable seller will provide you with a rock solid old user for a reasonable price. Sure, e-bay finds are plentiful for around $30 plus shipping (SB #4), but they may take hours of fettling to work right. You must decide whether its working the wood or working with the tools that work wood that suits you. That's why I encourage new entries into old tools to buy right up front. LN and LV work right out the box!!!!!! They won't break like the older planes, have beefier blades, have superior engineering, and don't require hours of prep time for use. After that, do buy from a knowledgable seller--one who will take the time to help you get the right tool. Otherwise, let the buyer beware!!!

    Enjoy--there's few things more thrilling that to see a handplane transform and amplify the natural beauty of wood.

    Archie

  8. #8
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    Archie,

    I have a couple of old Sargents and have been surprised st the thickness of the blades. Have you noticed that some of the non-Stanley blades are beefier? Also these are transitionals and I don't know if that has anything to do with it.

    Agree on sharpness - don't get obsessive (see many other posts) but nothing will sour you on hand tool use faster than dull blades.
    RD

  9. #9
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    Golly, when it is a reasonable hour in the east, it is still dark here on the left coast.
    Besides, being an old swing shift kind of guy my body is just starting to acclimate to getting up before 9:00 am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Novak View Post
    Previous to the recent purchase of my first planes I did a lot of research on this forum and benefited greatly from the advice I was given (thanks again). Ended up starting my plane collection with Lie Nielson low angle block and jack planes. During that research I learned that old Stanley Bailey planes were cherished somwhat by the real neanders.
    This is not because they are the best. It is because the price is reasonable for the quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Novak View Post
    So, when I stumbled into an opportunity to get my hands on a #4 and #6 I figured I couldn't pass it up, even if only to get them into the hands of a SMC brother who would appreciate them. Bad pics below, if useful I'll take more with a camera (vs. phone). I got them from a very accomplished woodworker who just got too old to do it any more. What are these worth? Would it benefit me much to clean them up? The blemishises seem pretty superficial and they're both as flat as my jointer table.
    Your source is likely about the best you could find. Someone who has made a living from the tools is more likely to take care of the tools than someone who bought them to trim a sticking door the wife was nagging him to fix.

    Clear pictures are always appreciated. If you are selling on eBay and want the pictures to do their job, a good, clear close shot of the mouth so people can see there are no chips of cracks in the area is one shot that every plane should have. A picture showing the overall plane, possibly with the blade next to it showing the back side so a potential buyer can see how much blade is left. If the blade is real clean, take the chip breaker off so it is clear there is no pitting in this area. This is something that I clean regularly on my users. Wood dust in this area tends to attract moisture and is not good for the blade.

    As far as the cleaning goes, a light cleaning of the surfaces is usually OK. If there is red/brown rust, my choice is to usually clean that off. A single edged razor blade and steel wool usually do a good job. Sometimes a bit of 220 sandpaper. To my eye, a bit of patina is more appealing than something that has been scrubbed to shine more than it ever has.

    If they are good and flat, don't try to fix them up any better.

    For most of the work done in my shop, Stanley/Bailey planes work fine. If you do work in harder woods, then LNs or LVs are likely a better choice. As was my comment in an earlier thread, a #8 was recently added to my collection. It took a few hours of work to get it into shape. Those few hours at most added $20 - $50 to the value of the plane. It wasn't done for the value so much as it was done because it is something which for me is enjoyable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Novak View Post
    What does one need to know about them to be comfortable buying them, and what do I need to know to assess their value? One thing that puzzled me is the blades aren't as thick as my new LNs. Anyway, your thoughts would be much appreciated. I'm sure they'd be valued more in someone elses hands and I'd love to make a little money help build my LN collection.
    What needs to be known to be comfortable buying old planes?

    My comfort level is different than others. Knowing what the particular models go for on eBay is one place to start. Knowing a bit about the type studies helps. I always check to see how much blade is left. How deep the rust has intruded into the surface. Is the wood in good condition.

    My question on every plane is how much work is being bought this time? Is this purchase a plane or a career?

    As far as making money is concerned, you will have to find a lot of planes real cheap to make much selling them. #4s are almost as common as dirt. #6 is an odd size that Patrick Leach has called all but useless. Personally, I like both of my #6s. These were both bought in a used tool store and the two of them were less than $50.

    If I thought I could make any money on it, one of them would be sold. Looking at the prices on eBay tells me it may be more trouble than it is worth.

    Same with a #4 laying around my shop in pieces. Putting it together and trying to sell it would on a good day bring in $30. For me, taking that time to walk down to the creek and enjoy the sounds is worth more than the $30. If my wife knew about this, she might want the $30.

    It is all relative. If you have a tight budget like me, buy old and restore. They will work well. Once you master the art of fettling and sharpening, you will be amazed a how well they work.

    If you are short on spare time and have a good paying job that enables you to save up some money, buy the LNs or LVs. One day, you will be retired like me and you will be happy with your decisions whether they be the old and restore or the new ready to use.

    jim

  10. #10
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    my bench planes are all old Stanleys

    and other old makes. They work fine for me.

    You'll read, in the type studies, that past a certain point, the Stanley and other planes got terrible. There is a point at which this is undeniable, but my jack plane is post World War II, one of the marker points people use to say "terrible plane," and it's a very serviceable plane.

    Clean up is not hard - disassemble, scrub with mineral spirits and an old toothbrush or (my preference) an SOS pad and warm water, dry, lubricate screws and other moving parts, wax everything else, sharpen the iron, reassemble, and try it out.

    You'll read discussions of tuning up a plane that involve many, many steps that would take you half a day. Probably very nice to maximize performance, but I've never done this and have been happy to date.

    Even if you decide to go buy a new, expensive plane (Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen, Clifton are the Names), fooling around with these will be a useful learning experience.

  11. #11
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    Dave

    They both look like nice planes to me. Should be easy to fix them up and use them.

    I personally would keep them. I own quite a few LN planes,I think 20, and I have more than a few old Stanley's and Millers Falls planes. I even have a really bad PEXTO ( I love this plane because it is so crappy, it's cool)

    Playing around with back bevels, opening up mouths, trying out blade camber are all part of the learning curve, and is a reason why folks have so many planes of the same size, each can be set up to perform a different task.
    The Stanley's and MF's let you do this at a significantly lesser investment. Doing this also increases your confidence that you can do it with a more expensive plane such as an LN, or LV.
    Oddly enough, I tend to grab my Stanley #5 and MF 14 1st for all the "rough stuff", even though the LN's are perfectly capable.

    Keep the planes until you are certain you don't need them. They have value.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  12. #12
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    So in the end, just keep them and work them! They will be happy and you to!
    the 3 plane I use the most in my shop(hand tools only), is #5, #6 and #8(my favorit plane.
    Jim K, do you find a big difference in between the Balay and bedrock models?

  13. #13
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    David,
    I have only owned one Bedrock, an early 604. It did not seem to perform any better than a well tuned Bailey. At the time there were 6 or 7 #4 model planes in my shop taking up room. Three of them were sold. I almost broke even. One extra postage charge ate into the meager profits. Who knows, maybe someday there will be a mass movement to have an old hand plane on top of wide screen TVs for better reception or something. That will be the day.

    When it comes to rehabbing a plane for personal use, my approach is that of a minimalist. Not much more than the least amount of work to get the plane doing excellent work and looking decent is done. All threaded parts will be removed to clean and oil. The frog is checked for proper seating and will be adjusted as needed. Any reddish/brown rust will be removed. The dark rust on the sides is usually left alone. The lever cap will usually get cleaned up.

    Look at my first and last post in this thread:

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=109395

    These may not be real clear as to what was done to the side, almost nothing. The bottom had some rust, mostly cleaned off with a razor blade and a light bit of sanding and 0000 steel wool. the lever cap was cleaned. The plane works fine now.

    The most important part of getting a plane ready to work is honing the blade and tuning the cap iron / chip breaker. After this, the plane can be tried on some wood. If it is doing a good job, anything after that will have diminishing returns. For me, I am a bit picky about my lateral adjustment. A square blade and setting the frog square should leave the lateral lever pretty much in the center for an even shaving. If not, then finding the cause is a bit more work.

    Notice, in my accumulation most of the planes are type 9 or earlier. I do not feel compelled to have the frog adjusting screw as is found on Bedrocks or type 10 and later Baileys. For me, it is just as easy to either adjust the frog by hand or to have a second plane if it is something that will be done often.

    jim

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