Dust Collector

[Wayne Lovell]

As practical matter how much is the difference between a dust collector with a 1 micron canister and one with a 2.5 micron bag worth?

Thanks, Wayne Lovell

[David Hostetler]

From what I understand, 1 micron should be considered a maximum size, smaller is better. Unless you don't like breathing...

Remember you either use a dust collector, or you ARE the dust collector.

Considering how cheap I can be about things, the fact that I spent perfectly good money on a HEPA filter for my shop vac, and a sub micron canister filter (Wynn) for my dust collector should be pretty telling...

[Jason Beam]

Well, i'll take a stab at this one ... I understand your sentiment, but the subject is complex enough that it's not just a simple answer ... I'll try my best, here...

For now, let's ignore the particle sizes...

First, you need more information than just the filtration level. You need to get the filter area as well. The more filter area there is, generally, the longer it takes to clog full of dust. This means, practically speaking, you usually have to clean the one with more surface area less often. Canisters typically have more surface area than a bag of similar dimensions (footprint?).

Next, the design of the dust separation portion of the system is vital in determining how fast the bag/filter will clog. A good design puts very little dust into the filter material - this also extends your time between cleanings.

Also, how the filtration is achieved is important. Sometimes the ratings given by manufacturers is AFTER they've accumulated a layer of super fine flower on their surface - basically making the holes through which the air passes smaller. Some bags will let particles much much larger through before that "cake" is built up. Wouldn't you know it, once you get that dust cake built up, your static pressure is so high that you don't get the CFM that the machine was rated at. This can dramatically hinder the actual airflow at the end of the hose, which means you may not even pull the dust away.



Now ... about that particle size rating ....

How practical is the difference? What are your lungs worth to you? Let's just suppose, for the sake of argument, that the ratings are honest and accurate. I don't have any real knowledge on the subject, but in all my reading the less you breathe in the better so I'd want to filter way the heck down as small as practical. It gets more and more expensive as you shrink the particle sizes ... so that's a monetary vs. risk assessment only you can do for yourself.

For me ... the canister was a no-brainer: I don't want my airflow to suffer anymore than it has to - so i went with a high filter area and low particle rating and tried to maximize separation before the filter. I'm quite pleased with my airflow, even after hours of drum sanding. I'm also not stressing too much about breathing in a little dust ... and that's a risk I'm willing to live with for now. I'm not willing to fork over the $$ for perfect (if it exists) system, nor is wearing a respirator my cup o' tea, nor am I willing to give up woodworking alltogether - so I take in a little dust for now. I say for now because I'm always looking to trade a little labor for a little improvement by building separators or enclosing the DC, etc.

[John McCaskill]

It's not a matter of economics once your lungs get so you can't breathe. Breathing a "little dust" can do major damage. That may sound over the top, until you live with someone who has COPD. That's irreversible. No way to "clean" the lungs once you get there. You sound like you did the right thing - the cannister and separator, which is efficient if the cannister is 1/2 or 1 micron. Less efficient than that, and you're living dangerously.

I thought the factory bag on my Jet was OK until we started through this COPD stuff a few years ago. I upgraded to the Wynn filter and a separator in front. It cost less than $150. I spend that every month or so on medicine for my better half. I figure it's every bit as important as wearing safety glasses and using a push stick.

John

[Jason Beam]

Jason, Jason, Jason... it's not a matter of economics once your lungs get so you can't breathe. That may sound over the top, until you live with someone who has COPD. That's irreversible. No way to "clean" the lungs once you get there. 1 or 1/2 micron is the least efficient filter I'd want on my DC.

I thought the factory bag on my Jet was OK until we started through this COPD stuff a few years ago. I upgraded to the Wynn filter. It cost less than $150. I spend that every month or so on medicine for my better half.

It's as important as wearing safety glasses and using a push stick.

John

I don't disagree with you.

But my regard for my lungs is somewhat overruled by my desire to live my life they way I want with the resources I have. I just draw my line at a different location (and I acknowledge that the line is absolutely moveable) than you appear to.

You do know the leading cause of death, right? ... Living.

Edit: You'll also note that I said the canister filter was a no-brainer. I have a wynn filter as well. Though, truth be told, the only practical way to avoid breathing in sawdust is not to make it in the first place. Spend all the money you want. If you're making dust, count on breathing some of it.

[David Hostetler]

... truth be told, the only practical way to avoid breathing in sawdust is not to make it in the first place. Spend all the money you want. If you're making dust, count on breathing some of it.

An excellent point that gets missed in many of these discussions...

I try to minimize my exposure, but not totally eliminate it. Then again I still on special occasions enjoy a good Maduro dipped in Cognac.... Some times you just have to live life and realize we are all terminal.

[Larry Browning]

Is wood dust more toxic now than it was 40 years ago? The reason I ask is that when I was growing up my dad spent most of his spare time and weekends in the shop making sawdust and then when he "retired" he spent all day every day out there. His primary dust collection unit was me on the end of a push broom. I would sneeze a bit every now and then, but never seemed to have other problems with it. After I left home he did it himself. He died of a heart attack while mowing the lawn.
Now I have a fairly substantial investment in my own dust gorilla and really like it. Mostly due to how much cleaner my shop is and I don't have to push the blasted broom around as much.
Everyone seems to focus on health concerns with saw dust these days, could it be that it is really just a giant conspiracy to get us spend our money in the name of health?
Makes me say Hmmmmm?

[David Hostetler]

Not neccesarily. A lot of the old guys have gotten lung disorders due to fine dust. Each person's sensitivity to fine dust varies. Like anything else, allergies can and often do develop over varying periods of exposure.

[Jason Beam]

Is wood dust more toxic now than it was 40 years ago? The reason I ask is that when I was growing up my dad spent most of his spare time and weekends in the shop making sawdust and then when he "retired" he spent all day every day out there. His primary dust collection unit was me on the end of a push broom. I would sneeze a bit every now and then, but never seemed to have other problems with it. After I left home he did it himself. He died of a heart attack while mowing the lawn.
Now I have a fairly substantial investment in my own dust gorilla and really like it. Mostly due to how much cleaner my shop is and I don't have to push the blasted broom around as much.
Everyone seems to focus on health concerns with saw dust these days, could it be that it is really just a giant conspiracy to get us spend our money in the name of health?
Makes me say Hmmmmm?

That's a very good question ... and I could probably follow that train of thought right into the philosophical debate about being so afraid of everything these days - everything's gotta be safe and germ free ... well if we don't have any germs in our bodies, what will our bodies use for target practice?! Your immune system needs exercising!!! ... see how easy that was? :P

I am of the opinion that wood dust hasn't gotten any more toxic than it ever was IF you define toxicity as a fixed value. However, I think toxicity is NOT a fixed value, it has to do with vulnerability to the substance ... and I believe we as humans have gotten progressively more vulnerable to things we didn't have to worry about in the past as a result of all the avoidance our ... there I go again ... heh

Bottom line - some people are more sensitive than others. Dust impacts each of us differently and some folks have severe responses where others go 70 years without so much as a wheeze. We haven't yet mastered a way to tell who is and who isn't susceptible to it so it's in our nature to deem it as 100% bad because it's an easier line in the sand. Unfortunately, that comes with the price of nearly always over-sterilizing our environments making it nearly a self-fulfilling prophecy ... weird ain't it? :P

Alarmists and Casuals alike ... seek what's best for YOU and accept that you are unique, just like everybody else.

[Andrew Joiner]

My understanding is they tested some woodworkers in Europe 20 years ago that worked for over 40 years breathing wood dust. They found a slightly higher rate of a rare nasal cancer. I think smokers were included in the study and smoking causes the same rare nasal cancer.

Other studies since then have not been so conclusive that wood dust is carcinogenic. Even if a study proved the cancer risk is zero, I'm sure OSHA and the wood industry might not want to risk saying " all is clear breath all the dust you want". We live in a litigious society.

I keep it simple and wear a mask when I'm doing something real dusty.

[Justin McCarthy]

Is wood dust more toxic now than it was 40 years ago? The reason I ask is that when I was growing up my dad spent most of his spare time and weekends in the shop making sawdust and then when he "retired" he spent all day every day out there. His primary dust collection unit was me on the end of a push broom. I would sneeze a bit every now and then, but never seemed to have other problems with it. After I left home he did it himself. He died of a heart attack while mowing the lawn.
Now I have a fairly substantial investment in my own dust gorilla and really like it. Mostly due to how much cleaner my shop is and I don't have to push the blasted broom around as much.
Everyone seems to focus on health concerns with saw dust these days, could it be that it is really just a giant conspiracy to get us spend our money in the name of health?
Makes me say Hmmmmm?

You could probably say the same thing about heart disease right? Some people can have bacon cooked in lard with ham and sausage every morning for breakfast followed by a BigMac(tm) for lunch and a fatty steak for dinner, smoke like a chimney and live to be 100. Others eat healthy and exercise every day and drop dead of a heart attack at 40. I don't for a minute disbelieve that your diet contributes to heart disease, but I think genetics and other factors do play a big role. I'm guessing its similar in this case - that some people have a higher tolerance for it. Me, I'm not taking chances - I'm allergic to practically every type of pollen known to man. I'm guessing I have a propensity to have problems so I take precautions.

-J

[Greg Crawford]

Real good info on Bill Pentz' site;

http://www.billpentz.com/woodworking...e/DCBasics.cfm

http://www.billpentz.com/woodworking...dicalrisks.cfm

From the DC Basics page;

1. Since the 1989 OSHA standard came out, the National Institute of Health (NIH) and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) released information showing:
2. Fine wood dust is a much stronger sensitizer than was originally thought, so prolonged exposure causes almost everyone to eventually develop allergy related health problems, some serious. Unlike the larger airborne wood dust particles that our bodies eventually get rid of, the finest dust sized 2.5-microns and smaller, roughly one fortieth the thickness of a coarse human hair, cause many of the most serious long term health problems. Our bodies have a very difficult time getting rid of this finest dust. It goes right past our natural protections and tends to lodge deeply in our tissues. The more of this finest dust we take in, the faster we become sensitized. Continued exposure over time causes us to become more and more sensitized with ever stronger allergic reactions leading to health problems that eventually become chronic and potentially very serious.
3. The Environmental Protection Agency also declared fine wood dust a carcinogen, meaning our intake of this dust also leaves us with increased risk of cancer.

[Bill Blackburn]

An excellent point that gets missed in many of these discussions...

I try to minimize my exposure, but not totally eliminate it. Then again I still on special occasions enjoy a good Maduro dipped in Cognac.... Some times you just have to live life and realize we are all terminal.

Like what you said - called common sense and fact of life.

Can I totally eliminate hazards in the shop air totally? Probably not. In any event I will assure you this - my shop air is better almost every day of the year than what I have for air outside me here. With just a silly DC and 1mic bags. And way better than anything I inhale in LA or NYC or Chicago on dang near ever day of the year when it's hot out.

So where do we get serious and draw a line? I come from a family of wordworkers and others who have been in logging trades or paper mills. If anyone seriously thinks the air there within those settings is better than a shop w/ a 2.5 mic bag I say bring up your meters and a fistfull of dollars and we'll make some small wager. You will head home a much poorer man.
Enough on this from me - like everything in America this has gotten to be, IMHO, waaaaay over the top on what's needed.
Have a great weekend everyone. The hungry fish residing under the water are beckoning me.

[Frank Hagan]

I think there's a difference in the way we work as well. My dad had a table saw and a jointer. And a lot of hand planes, miter saws, chisels and other hand tools. Not a lot of fine dust in his shop.

If its the sub-micron sized particles that are the problem, why are we worrying about 1 micron or 2.5 micron filtering? Neither is sufficient. Both are returning the most dangerous particles ... the sub-micron sized ones ... back into the room.

[Peter Aeschliman]

The way I see it is this: Educated people who study the subject say there there are health risks. I'm no doctor or air quality specialist. If there's a 50% chance they're right, then I'll err on the side of caution.

I only get one body to live in!!