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Treated wood will create dangerous dust later on during machining. I would be very careful with the boric acid on wood you will be using for your projects.Originally Posted by Bill Keehn
Boric acid is used on cellulose insulation so that the bugs don't eat the wood fiber. When humans breath the dust from the insulation, they get very ill (hair falls out, rapid weight loss, extreme fatigue, etc......just like dying a slow death).
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We use tons of Boric Acid where I work, just a dust mask if you're stirring it up. It's kind of heavy so it doesn't make much dust. So far I haven't seen any ill effects of it. If it's mixed with water, it won't be bad at all.
Here's the material safety data sheet (MSDS) for it. Basically it's an irritant. http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Boric_acid-9927105
I've seen guys at work covered in the stuff and it didn't seem to bother them. If you're dog has an eye infection, the vet will tell you to flush his eyes with it.
Great stuff, kill bugs, stops infections and absorbs neutrons in a nuclear reactor!
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I have a stack of mostly 6/4 hard maple and quarter sawn red oak, which I milled around 8 years ago. It was air dried outdoors for around 3 years, and has been air drying in my garage since. When I was milling the wood, I noticed small holes on the sap wood next to the bark so knew there were bark beatles present but wasn't too concerned. I tried to use some of the wood for a project recently, and noticed small holes (filled with frass) in the heart wood. Now I speculate there are powder post beatles. After reading posts from this thread, I thought a possible solution to salvage the wood would be to mix Timbor with water and spray. I planned to leave the treated stack in my garage a little while longer before use, reasoning that emerging beatles will die when they ingest the treated wood from the surface layer.
I'm now a bit concerned after reading Mike's comments regarding boric acid being toxic to humans.
What's the best way to treat this problem with maximum wood salvage?
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IMO the "best way to treat" would be to build an amonia fuming tent and fume it, or put it through a kiln sterilization cycle. I feel that these are best because you are not rewetting dried wood (although that too is an option).
I have not had any problems working with the boric acids, but I take the same precautions working with it as I do when working with any chemical - face mask, gloves and take a shower immediately after working with it.
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I'm a bit hesitant with amonia fuming, but kiln sterilization is definitely a good method. I don't have access to a kiln. I was thinking maybe I can rig a temporary enclosure just so I can heat up the wood to 140 degrees for a couple of hours. Is that the right temperature and duration?
According to this web site:http://doyourownpestcontrol.com/timbor.htm , and the MSDA for Timbor (accessible via hyperlink on the same page), the product's not all that harmful to humans (but the "Potential Chronic Health Effects" section from the MSDA from Josh's posting sounded a bit more ominous). I also called the Timbor manufacturer about this. The rep I spoke to says that sawdust from treated wood does not cause much additional harm when compared to untreated sawdust. One other interesting thing she mentioned was that beatles do no ingest wood when exiting. Apparently, the insects only ingest wood on the way in, so untreated wood nearby can theoretically be infested by the emerged beatles.
I may still use Timbor, but I think heating the wood is the best solution. Does anyone have an idea on how to rig a temporary enclosure?
Maybe something like this: http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/n...or-pine_xl.jpg will work.
Opinions?
Last edited by Pat Moy; 06-01-2010 at 1:36 PM.
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You need to get the "center" of the board to 133F or higher for at least 30 minutes to sterilize. 2 hours may not be enough time for the center of the board to get that warm. Better to plan on several hours.
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A solar oven comes to mind -- basically a large (however large you need) black box (made of plywood even) internally with a glass top with all sides sealed to ensure any sunlight entering does not get lost through cracks.. I had one of these a few years ago and it wasn't that well sealed and I could get it to about 135 with no fuel source -- just the Sun. A well sealed unit in a nice sunlit area with direct sun ought to be able to get well into the 140's for several hours depending on sun angle,etc. Just Google for "Solar Oven" -- there are tons out there.
P.S. If anyone wants it, I've got an unopen/still sealed bottle of Borrada liquid (I believe Borrada LP) that was purchased in the summer of '07 when we did some remodelling. I used one of these jugs but also bought the powdered variety.. I sprayed all of the accessible 2x4's and other beams while the wallboard was removed,etc.. It creates a sparkly surface that dries and should keep termites and other bugs away.. I gather that you can literally soak wood in it if you want to. Anyway, let me know if it's wanted and I'll make you a good deal! (PM me)
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Thanks Rick. That's interesting info; I've never heard of solar ovens before. I googled the term as you suggested, and all sorts of materials came up, including some plans for simple home-made versions. Sounds like these can get potentially get a lot hotter than 135 degrees. What's a cheap and easy way to regulate temperature?
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You can get a pound of boric acid from Lowe's, HD, Tractor Supply, or probably even Wal-Mart for about $3. It's in the pest section, and usually in a squeeze bottle labeled as a roach or ant killer. Just check the active ingredients list. I've dissolved this and sprayed all my wood as it comes in with one of those pump up sprayers.
A cheap solar oven is 6 mil black plastic. You can make a wood burrito with the black plastic, and it will get nice and toasty in there . . . fairly easy to seal, and it would be better to elevate the burrito to prevent the ground from acting as a heat sink. If you guys find out a good way to regulate the heat inexpensively, I'd love to know, but I don't think it matters, as temps above 140 should be fine as well. Good luck!
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The way the boric acid works is it makes adult beetles sterile. It doesn't kill any larvae already in the wood. Lyctids (commonly known as PPB) hatch at the surface, the larva finds an entry (usually at end grain) then bore away inside the wood till maturity when they exit via the small holes they bore. All the holes you see are exit holes. They then mate and continue the process. Boric acid works because it lasts a long time on the wood. Keeping the wood dry, with good airflow around it protects the wood also.
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Powder post critters are always interesting. You mentioned you bought the wood off of CL on occasion and I thought I'd just let you know the "depths" that these things can go. I cut down a bunch of soft maple 3 years ago. About 26"-30" butt logs. Beautiful and straight. They were out in the weather but had great circulation and were up on bunks. I just sawmilled one yesterday with my Lucas Mill and found just a couple of tiny black holes, maybe 4 or 5 over the entire length of a 12 foot log. Pretty much over a 4 foot length towards one end. I cut into the log 5/4 at a time. Those lavae bored almost 8" into the tree! Unbelieveable. I discarded all the 5/4X8" x12' boards I was cutting to be used in the fireplace, but was shocked as to how deep and straight towards the center they bored. I salvaged some hardwood from the centermost of the log but was very saddened to see the blighters do so much damage and especially that they went so deep. Just one more observation of powder posts and that's up here in the NorthWest.
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Boric Acid hurts insects but is soothing to people in very small quantities. I believe this is why it is used in eyewash in a very low concentration.
I prefer to use it as insecticide around people and pets since it doesn't hurt either in reasonable quantities. I believe it kills bugs by dessicating them.
I follow the BBB method for my swimming pool. That means I added 120 pounds of boric acid to it a few years ago and add to it to maintain a 50ppm concentration of borates. I buy it at a scientific supply in 100 pound drums.
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Heat is the best way to go. It doesn't take much if you're dealing with small pieces of lumber, you could even just wrap in black plastic and leave it inside your car on a hot day. I've seen some numbers on heat and insect mortality, and a five degree increase in temperature can double the kill rate. Anything over 130 degrees should do it in a couple hours.
The problem with these little critters is that they may not come out of the wood for years, and any poison has to come in direct contact with them. Borax will do nothing for pieces that already have grubs tunneling in them, unless you can find a way to shoot it down the holes. My understanding is that the eggs are the most difficult to kill.
I did some work recently in a house where they had some infested furniture. The furniture was purchased and fumigated in the 70's. It looks like the oak floor was infested before the furniture was fumigated. After having spent a lot of money on this "extermination" they found out much later that sections of their floor needed to be replaced and the reinfested furniture got tossed. I was the one that discovered the infestation this year - nothing like being the bearer of bad news when you're there for unrelated work.
Use the stock with powder post beatle damage if it is structurally sound. Charge more for the furniture that you make because it looks like an antique piece with distrewssed lumber.
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Yes.
You can buy agricultural borax that is used as a fertilizer addition much cheaper than the advertised formulations for insect control. The active ingredient is the same. So, check with your Ag supply store or Ag fertilizer distributor and you can get the same basic stuff for a third of the Timbor type and SoluBor type formulations. I mix 1 pound of borate powder in a gallon of water in 4 gallon batches to be used in a back-pack sprayer. You can spray a lot of BF this way in a reasonable amount of time.
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