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Thread: sub-panel ?

  1. #1
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    Question sub-panel ?

    Hello everyone just got back from HD purchased some elec stuff
    100 amp panel with some 20 amp breakers in with it Square D brand I plan on trying to find a 90 amp breaker for the house panel to feed the 100 amp sub
    the HD has some 80 amp breakers would that be enough for a small shop?
    why I'm asking I have #2 4 wire aluminum direct bury and some of the elec forums I have looked at there is some confusion about 100 amp and #2 aluminum wire with the codes I just want to be safe and get a 90 amp or 80 amp.

    As of now I only have 1 tool that rus off 120/220 but when I replace some of my old tools down the road, I plan to get some 220(cab TS, DC,ex ex). I'm going to wire 10/3 and space them through the shop and have them for when the need arises.

    I also purchased 10 4' shop lites Hope thats enough light for a 20x24 building.
    and I will have outlets every 6' and 52" off the floor.

    Thank you Jim

  2. #2
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    Jim,

    My main panel has a 100 A breaker off of it feeding into #2 Aluminum and that then feeds into my house panel. I think you'll be in good shape. My house panel has 50 A for stove, 30 A for dryer, lottsa 20 A for around the house along with lottsa 15 A. I think the #2 run is about 25-30 feet.

    Because of my garage gut, I am going to "off-load" a few circuits from the house panel and run right off the main panel. For example, the 240V/30 A dryer circuit will be moved to the main panel and I'll move some 120V/20 A and 15 A circuits to the main panel as well (washer feed, maybe furnace, and lights). I have A LOT of room in my main panel.

    My new A/C is coming off the main panel as well. My main panel has 2/0 Aluminum feed and a 150 A breaker so I was simply thrilled when I discovered this! 200 A would be nicer but hey, this came with the house!
    Last edited by Chris Padilla; 08-20-2004 at 7:37 PM.
    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

  3. #3
    Jim,

    I have 3 sub panels hung off my main panel. Each is a Siemens 100 amp, 20 slot. The shop panel is fed with 3 #3 copper and a #4 for the ground. The basement panel is the same, however the attic panel is fed with a #2 aluminum wire bundle. Each sub is fed by it's own 100 amp breaker in the main panel. In our 104 year old house, it's easier to run new circuits up to the attic or in a clean basement panel then pull to the older service. I don't think you will have any problems with your #2 wire and a 100 amp breaker. I did use conduit for my 80' run to the detached shop, it's just a lot easier to pull the cables, plus a few other light runs in the 2" conduit. Sounds like you have a good outlet and lighting plan. In my shop I run lots of outlets, and 2 8' 2 lamp fixtures, and 4 4' 2 lamp fixtures. I need to add a task lamp for the lathe, but I believe the shop is well lighted. It's about 14'x21'.

    Good Luck - John

  4. #4
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    Chris,

    The 100 amp breaker on the #2 AL cable is exactly what the discussions have been about. #2 AL is normally rated for 90 amps. The discussions have been about feeders, such as the one from your service equipment to your "house panel" subpanel vs. a more normal subpanel. The issue is load diversity.

    Jim,

    You need to make a list of what you could run simultaneously in the shop. Here's a SWAG at a list, allowing for tool/machine upgrades:
    • 5 HP cabinet saw - 25(?) amp draw
    • 3 HP DC - 17 amp draw
    • 3 HP 240v compressor cycles on - 18 amp draw
    • 240v Air Conditioner - 15 amp draw
    • Lights - 10 amps


    That's 85 amps and is intended to load things up. Only you know your taste in machines. If you're like me and will likely acquire more powerful machines, do this once and spend the $ to put in a 100 amp service so you don't have to worry.

    You might want to plan on a little more lighting - more is better. Run (3) sets of 5 lights down the 24' length. Just my opinion.

    I hope you got the SqD QO series and not the Homeline. If you went with the Homeline, return it and go for the QO series.

    Rob

  5. #5
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    FWIW, the #3 copper in John's subpanels is rated at 100 amps. You have to go to #1 AL to get 100 amps.

  6. #6
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    The standard around here is 1 Aught SEC for a 100 Amp service. 4 Aught SEC for 200 Amp service and 4 Aught Copper SEC for 250 Amp services.

    #2 may be too light duty for when you fire up a heavy duty DC and are powering some oak through the TS and running lights, a fan or heater and such.

    Just my experience and what we always did while I was an electrician.

    The usual disclaimers apply here.!!!! Always err on the side of safety. No house fires now....
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

  7. #7
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    Jim,

    I am right there with you. I started digging tonight for my sub. I am going with 60amps at the advice of Mr. Peacock. It brings the cost down quite a bit for me. A 60 amp breaker is 1/3 the price of 70amps and and up. My shop is tiny so I am hoping it will be plenty. I have a few tools that run on 230: TS jointer and bandsaw. I also think i am going to convert my 1 1/2 horse jet DC to 230. Remember that twice the voltage means 1/2 the amps used. I want to ad AC eventually. I was just about to email Dennis to ask what size conduit for 6-3, and ask if I can run a phone line in the same trench. Good luck and I will keep an eye on the thread to see if I can get any pointers for myself.
    Joe

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Meazle
    I was just about to email Dennis to ask what size conduit for 6-3, and ask if I can run a phone line in the same trench. Good luck and I will keep an eye on the thread to see if I can get any pointers for myself.
    Joe
    Hey Joe,

    The phone line to my shop is ran in a seperate piece of conduit but in the same trench. As long as your power is in one and phone in the other, you should be fine. I'd run your big wire in a 2" Grey PVC conduit. Yea, there's lot's of room in a 2" conduit....but think about it.......a 200 amp service running on 4 aught SEC is running inside a 3" conduit and there's a LOT of space inside that pipe. The 2" just gives you extra room and slack for pulling through any elbows you may have in your run out to the shop.

    Put a heavy pull string in the pipe if you aren't going to run the wire as you run the pipe. This way, you can pull the wire later via the rope or heavy string you put in the pipe. If you use glue....always make SURE you can move the rope/string after each joint has set. DAMHIKT!!!!
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

  9. #9
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    Dennis,
    man I did not want to hyjack the thread. i am a new guy and don't want to step n any toes. I was thinking that I would run the wire as I went since ther is a straight section in the middle and 2 90's on each end. Do i need to nake sure that my main has a 2" knockout or is there a reducer of some type? Man you are quick I just sent you and email.
    Joe

  10. #10
    Rob,

    Thanks for the heads up, I'm 90% sure the aluminum wire is a #2 (I need to double check tonight), anyway that's what the guys at the supply house recommended. But I do recall copper as the way to go for the shop and the heavier use. The attic panel fed with the aluminum is light duty, a couple ceiling fans, attic fans, new grounded circuits for electonics in each room, maybe a AC feed down the road. I bet I never pull more then 25 amps from the panel.

    John

  11. #11
    I love pulling wire! I ran all my conduit and then pulled 4 mains plus 3 sets of 12/3w/g at once. I'm glad my Dad was around to help. I did have a 90 LB in the middle so I only needed to pull about 40' at once, but I had several smooth 90's on each end. Love that Yellow 77.

    John

  12. #12
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    Thank's Rob
    Yes the talk of the forums about the #2 and 100 amp is a mess I have talked to several elec about it on diff job site's and most say it's borderline but they have put a lot in that way I'm going to try to find a 90 amp breaker.
    I do plan to get the Grizzly cab saw I think it pulls 18 amp's and I have a portable DC and will use it till it die's
    I'm going to put in AC 220 V
    I don't think I will ever get a big air comp I have a small fire sprinkler system comp and it does all I will ever need if I had a auto body shop I could see geting a large comp. But just for brad nailer or to clean dust it does just fine.
    I think the lights use about 1/2 amp each.

    Here's what I come up with
    lights 5 amps (if they are 1/2 amp each)
    table saw 18 amps
    comp 4 amps (Its small 1/3 hp)
    DC 8 amps
    AC ? 15 amps
    "50 amps total"
    Or with a big DC 60 amps.
    Jim

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Meazle
    Dennis,
    man I did not want to hyjack the thread. i am a new guy and don't want to step n any toes. I was thinking that I would run the wire as I went since ther is a straight section in the middle and 2 90's on each end. Do i need to nake sure that my main has a 2" knockout or is there a reducer of some type? Man you are quick I just sent you and email.
    Joe
    Hey Joe
    we are all here to learn and help each other out Ill take any help I can get! keep on going I might learn something!
    Jim

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Weber
    Rob,

    Thanks for the heads up, I'm 90% sure the aluminum wire is a #2 (I need to double check tonight), anyway that's what the guys at the supply house recommended. But I do recall copper as the way to go for the shop and the heavier use. The attic panel fed with the aluminum is light duty, a couple ceiling fans, attic fans, new grounded circuits for electonics in each room, maybe a AC feed down the road. I bet I never pull more then 25 amps from the panel.

    John
    Thanks John
    let me know the wire size!
    Jim

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Peacock
    Put a heavy pull string in the pipe if you aren't going to run the wire as you run the pipe. This way, you can pull the wire later via the rope or heavy string you put in the pipe. If you use glue....always make SURE you can move the rope/string after each joint has set.
    Another way to get the pull string is to use your shop vac. Take a ping pong ball and attach some light string. Suck the PP ball back towards your feding panel. Got the PP ball and light string? Attach heaver pull string and pull it through. Remember to leave pull string in the conduit for later (means having twice as long a piece of pull string than your conduit run to start with).

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