Can 1-man hobbiest DC even be done? Can it be done for a reasonable price? With this?

[David Romano]

My formula is similar to some of the others here. I have a 2hp Jet, which you could come to by adding the 11.5" impeller. Other than that, I have a Wynn Canister (cellulose), 6" ducts and just as importantly, a Thien baffle. Mount it inside the DC separator ring, not as a preseparator. Search The Creek for posts on this (Jan '08).

The reason this baffle is so important is that the canister will clog otherwise. In my experience, flappers don't work. The canisters that give you alot of filter area have fairly tight pleats. The dust gets caked in there and it won't come out.

David

[James Carmichael]

Ditto the Nike approach. "Just do it". Take a first step, then you'll see what works and what doesn't and begin DC Strategy, 2.0.

Sounds like they guy was a Bill Pentz disciple. Some good info on his site, but spend too much time there, and you'll decide WW is about as safe as skydiving without a parachute.

I'm a small garage shop and currently run a 1hp Cummins that I wheel around to each macine. It's by no means great, but certainly better than nothing.
I'm currently planning an upgrade that will be either HF 2hp unit with the Wynn, or maybe an attic-installed cyclone.

Here's the Wynn site. The products/upgrades have a great reuptation for improving the HF DC:
http://www.wynnenv.com/cartridge_filters.htm

[Nathan Callender]

Yes, you will be fine. Here's my suggestion - use your garage to your advantage. That's what others told me and I live in the south east (it's hot right now.) Even though it's crazy hot, I can open the door and get a fan going and I can survive. In the winter, I can work with the door down and blow out the shop once a week.

You need protection NOW! So, get a respirator - a good one. Nothing less that N100 filtering (or P100). Get one of the 3m masks on amazon and a set of filters and wear them any time your in the shop - not just while using the power tools. It's affordable (~$50), easy, and the good masks are comfortable and can be worn hours on end (cheap masks are a pain, don't skimp on this). It's essential because it will seriously take you months to get all your tools set up to collect dust properly, so just get the mask now. You can use it for all sorts of other things down the road (finishing with the proper filters, etc) so it's not wasted. The wood whisperer has a 5hp cyclone and still wears one all the time. :-) They aren't too bad.

Every week, blow out your shop with a shopvac or leaf blower or whatever.

So, now that you know you are breathing good air and dust isn't building up in the garage, here are the steps you want to take:

1. Get a good filter for the DC. Wynn sells some good 0.5 micron cartridge filters. These are probably the best bet, but look around. You can vent outside, but do your homework first. Many people cant' for one reason or another. You may also want to get a separator - that's your call.

2. Get 5" or 6" hose for the dust collector. This is where you need to do your research. Spend some time on Bill Pentz's site and learn about the mechanics to dust collection. You have to decide if you want ducting or if you will roll the thing around. I can't fathom ducting my garage, it's just too small. As it is, a 10" hose will reach most of the way around the garage if the DC is in the middle, so I'm not really even moving it, I just hook it up to the current tool. :-)

3. Retrofit each of your machines with a good dust port. My TS3660 comes with no dust collection to speak of. I spent yesterday designing shrouds to cover the base and I'll get them built soon. It doesn't matter what type of DC you have if the dust port on the tool is useless. BTW, I just found out that my router will pass dust right through the motor and out the top. I've been using it with it's DC port and a shopvac for a long time, and just not realized that. You see, that's why the respirator is so valuable.

4. Get a big industrial fan. I skimped on my fan and wish I spent a little more and got a nice big metal one. I think unless you heat or air condition a garage, an air filter isn't needed. A fan does a much better job at exchanging the air with outside air in a garage. However, if you do heat/AC, then get or build a good air cleaner. There are people that suggest sizing it to exchange the air 25 times per hour - that's what I would do if I got one.

All in all, as long as your shop doesn't share air with your house, you can buy yourself time with a respirator, and you can then spend time getting set up the way that fits you best.

Good luck!

[Jack Ellis]

As many others have suggested, hook up the DC you have and move on. Don't allow perfection to be the enemy of the good.

[Wilbur Pan]

Coming from a turning standpoint, I think that the DC needs for a woodturner are quite different from someone who does mainly cabinetmaking.

You are right in that the health issues come from the fine dust that you can't really see. For turning, though, you are really only generating that fine dust when turning dried wood to some extent, but most of it will come when you are doing your sanding operations. Even then, you won't be generating anywhere near the volume of dust that a dado blade makes going through MDF.

My short answer is that for my shop, I have a 1.5 HP single stage DC with a canister filter, and an air cleaner, both rated to trap micron sized particles. The DC is hooked up to a small dust hood on the lathe for when I'm sanding with a short length of flex hose. The DC is moved to my bandsaw and jointer/planer when I use those machines. I keep my air cleaner running at max all the time I'm in the shop, and I set the timer on the air cleaner for it to run for four hours after I leave. I also have a cheap floor standing fan that helps as well. I think this is more than adequate for turning.

The long answer is here's why.

I read and thought a lot about DC issues when I first got my shop up and going. If anything, I'm probably more paranoid about the dust issues than most since I'm a pediatric oncologist and know too much about this stuff, and also because my shop is in our basement, has no ventilation to the outside, and has HVAC ducts running across the ceiling of my shop area right up to our kitchen and dining areas, so any dust I make has a very good chance of making it to the rest of the house. I did not want my hobby to give my kids asthma.

I spent a lot of time reading Bill Pentz's website, and although what he says is fundamentally sound and accurate, I needed to come up with a different dust management solution than getting a cyclone system. Due to low ceiling heights and limited space, I just can't physically locate a cyclone in my basement shop.

This is how I've broken down the dust issue, as Bill sees it.

1. You also need to trap all the dust at the source, otherwise it won't get to the cyclone and filter, and roam about your shop and your lungs.
2. To capture all the fine (micron-sized) dust, you need a lot of CFM.
3. There are many enemies to getting a lot of CFM. One of the big ones is the filter bag clogging up with fine dust.
4. To prevent the filter bag clogging issue, you need a way to separate the fine dust before it hits the filter. This is where the cyclone comes in.
5. The problem with a cyclone, or any other preseparator like the Thien baffle, is that you will lose CFM just by placing it in the stream. That is why Bill recommends 3HP motors and larger and large impellers.

Now, as you've found out, to get a large motor and cyclone into your shop, you're going to need money, space, and a dedicated circuit. For a lot of us, this isn't going to be feasible. For me, it's a space issue.

Luckily, there seem to be other ways of managing the dust issue. I know a little about this from my day job, because my patients who are undergoing bone marrow transplants, or who are immunosuppressed from chemotherapy and dealing with infection often go into HEPA filtered isolation rooms, and these are some techniques that we can use in our shop for dust management as well.

First, outside ventilation is the easiest and best method. So when the weather allows, I would do that. This can be as easy as opening your garage door and a window to set up a cross breeze, and using a fan to encourage air movement.

Second, for when you can't vent outside, get and use an air cleaner unit. The key here is to get one that is well sized for your shop. The usual advice for air cleaner units is to filter the volume of air 6-10 times an hour. I would go for 25 times an hour. Based on some back of the envelope calculations I once did, this will clear over 99.9% of the fine dust in your shop in less than 30 minutes. Luckily, if one air cleaner won't get you to that goal, it's easy to upgrade by just install another one. This may give you some synergy, since multiple air cleaners will circulate the air in the shop with more mixing of the air, which will make them more efficient at clearing dust.

Third, further reduce the CFM loss with the equipment you have. The way I did this is by moving my DC around my shop to the machine I'm using, and keeping just a short length of flex hose. This will greatly reduce any CFM loss.

Fourth, use air pressure (read: fans) to protect yourself. Our isolation rooms in our unit have laminar flow positive pressure isolation. This means that the air pressure in the rooms is such that when the door is opened to the hall, air goes out of the rooms, which means that airborne bugs can't get in. I use a poor man's version of this in my shop by using a floor standing fan placed behind me, aimed at the piece that I am turning. The air current that the fan provides prevents dust from getting to me right off the lathe.

I think that the one weakness in Bill's analysis of dust management is the "capturing all the dust at the source" approach. Of course, this is ideal, but it is exceedingly hard to implement, even for people who have cyclone systems. To this end, I'm going with a "try to get as much dust up front" approach, by shortening the hose run before my DC.

But if I'm going to accept that I can't catch all the dust at the source, I need to have a backup plan. This is where the air cleaner comes in.

So in your case, I'd get a cheap floor standing fan, and an air cleaner that can run 750 CFM for every 200 square feet of shop space that you have, assuming an 8' ceiling. For a 20' x 20' shop, get two, and hang them on opposite sides of the shop. This will give you that 25 air exchanges an hour that I was referring to. I have the JDS air cleaner, which I like a lot, mainly because they accurately rate the CFMs that their unit can provide. Many companies that sell these units measure CFMs without all the filters in place. JDS tells you what the CFM is with the filters installed.

Finally, remember that different woodworking operations generate different amounts of fine dust, and that in woodturning, dust is probably mainly an issue when sanding. Actually, from a dust management standpoint, I'd be more worried about the dust you'll make with that new bandsaw you're getting.

Don't get me wrong. If I had the space and the right location for my shop, I would vent outside and get a cyclone system. But to do that, I am going to have to move to a new house first.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

I have a 2hp Jet, which you could come to by adding the 11.5" impeller.

I am going to have to see if I can locate one for my HF Dust collector. It would be nice to just get a new impeller and put it in place.

Other than that, I have a Wynn Canister (cellulose), 6" ducts and just as importantly, a Thien baffle. Mount it inside the DC separator ring, not as a preseparator. Search The Creek for posts on this (Jan '08).

I found the Wynn filter stuff and I am just about to order the larger one that fits onto my HF. I could get the smaller cheaper one that they have a link to on their page but I would really rather have the large one that fits without having to make a donut collar. Call me silly but it seems faster to my end goal and that has benefits. But I am a little lost and need to contact them or do some more research here on the Creek. I have been reading that internal size of the filter is key. The larger format is 274 sq. ft but the thinner one that needs a donut is 300 sq. feet. Is one really better than the other or are they both good enough? Which one did you use?

Right now I am planning on a Wynn filter before I even turn my equipment back on with the 4mil plastic bags on the bottom and then a Thien baffle. I had planned for the trashcan version but I think the internal mod version will be better.

Is this the thread you mentioned? http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=74713

I found it a touch short on details that I would need a first time builder of one of these. Or at least what I thought I would need. I will have to keep searching.

Thanks David! I really appreciate it!

Joshua

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Oh... Hehehe. He was talking about your modification to your Jet. Small world after all.

Do you have any further pictures of what you did up here on the Creek?

Thanks,
Joshua

[David Hostetler]

I have given this quite a bit of thought as to how best to answer this. I hope this reply helps.

Dust collection is a bit of a compromise. If you read Bill Pentz' site, you will see that CFM and ultra fine filtration are keys to dust safety.

Dust collectors, cyclones, etc... are almost to the last one rated for airflow with NO plumbing, and no filters, so sure, a HF 2HP DC can probably theoretically pull 1600 CFM with the inlet wide open and no bags installed.

The biggest threats to CFM are in this order. Plugged filter media, either bag, or canister. Improper ducting design such as excessive runs of flex line, too small pipe, etc... Inefficient separator design.

Pre separators do a GREAT job of keeping filters clean, but take a hit, sometimes considerable, on the CFM performance of the system. Installing a separator in the inlet ring of the DC minimizes this, but also eliminates the easier to empty trash can from the system. Bill Pentz recommends a neutral vane, which works okay. Honestly Phil Thien's baffle idea works better in use in keeping the filter clean.

Filter bags are NOT a good idea. They have far less surface area (lower CFM capacity) than a pleated filter, and almost all bag type filters require the inside of the bag be caked with dust that they strangle airflow. The only bags I have heard of that flow well enough when caked enough to provide decent filtering are those giant filters from AFF, you know the ones that look like a Mushroom cloud? I know there are folks here that use micron bags and such, DON'T BLAME ME, I am simply restating what I read on Bill Pentz' site okay? I nearly grabbed the 1 micron bags from Highland Woodworking myself, but figured I knew I wanted to go with a Wynn filter in the long run anyway.

I don't understand where Bill says .5 micron or lower and then goes on to regale his readers with the stories of how great the Wynn Spun Bond filter media is. (Depending on where you read, it is EITHER .5, or 1 micron filtration, most spots say 1 micron). I went with Spun Bond and pray I don't regret it.

Bill puts up a LOT of statistics and calculations on air speed in a pipe and around bends and such. From what I can see a straight shot of 4" S&D looks like a better arrangement compared to a twisty run of 6".

That HF DC has a 5" inlet which is an odd pipe size, but VERY common for dust collectors. It also has a jumper of 5" from the impeller to the inlet ring. In intake can be upsized to 6" pretty easily with a shop built piece, but that jumper not so easy unless you are a sheet metal worker too. And 5" pipe and fittings are very hard to come by, and VERY expensive.

From an availability persepctive, many of us go with 4" even though it isn't ideal. It is certainly better than nothing...

So my DC configuration at least as I am trying to lay it out is as follows.
-HF 2 HP DC against back wall of shop.
-20 amp circuit dedicated to the DC. Actually shared with the washing machine, but I never do laundry and woodworking at the same time, so it's all good.
-Wynn Spun Bond poly blend filter. Again I may regret not doing the paper element, but this was touted so loudly by Bill, as well as other users and the idea of being able to clean my filter was extremely attractive to me. According to the folks at Wynn I talked to the difference in filtration rating was due to different testing methods, and that both the paper and spun bond media were rated to .5 micron. I am no expert and this confuses me.
-Short piece of 4" flex line feeding into a STRAIGHT shot of 4" S&D to 4" long sweep 45 degree wyes. The pipe is run low along the floor to avoid fighting gravity too. I am using BOTH ports on the DC, and each port is controlled with a Lee Valley 4" self cleaning blast gate. The left side gate goes up and over the ceiling to service the Shark Guard via 2.5" hose. All pipe fittings held together with clear silicone sealant (caulk).
-Lee Valley 4" Self Cleaning Blast Gates at eacy Wye leading up to short run of 4" flex to the tool.
-Upgraded dust hoods wherever I could put them.
-Temporary 20" box fan fitted with 3M HEPA rated allergen filter. To be replaced with shop built overhead air cleaner. (have the squirrel cage and 3 speed motor, need timer / remote control electronics still).

I am painfully aware that 6" duct work would be far superior to the 4" stuff. But in all fairness, with all materials including the DC itself, the Wynn filter (and shipping) more than enough 4" pipe, and fittings, hose, blast gates, silicone etc... I have about $625.00 invested. This is not including the overhead air cleaner, or my shop vac 2.5" based system (which adds another $300.00 to the bill). I may end up grabbing a particle counter from a friend and testing with the 4" to see if 6" is really required. If not no sense in spending the money.

My choice in 4" ducting was based on budget. As financial realities improve, and if the 4" doesn't perform up to par, my 4" WILL be upgraded to 6", and the stovepipe mod where the flex line between the impeller and inlet ring is replaced with 5" stovepipe, (This makes a smoother bend without nearly as many ridges that the flex hose has.).

Outside venting has its advantages, but where I am it is most of the year too hot to work without air conditioning, and I cannot afford to simply blow the cooled air out through a hole in the wall.

Going with the Wynn filter is a great idea, but you hit on something. Make sure you go with the 35A kit. It is a DIRECT drop in to the HF DC.

Build your Thien baffle, install it on the stand offs, remove the baffle from the standoffs so that the DC ring has the standoffs left on, add the filter, then reinstall the baffle. You will be amazed at how well this works...

[Rod Sheridan]

Joshua, if you are using the collector for capturing dust/chips from your lathe, you're going to be partially disappointed.

Turning generates a lot of large spiral curls, which cannot be picked up by a dust collector, you need a shovel and a broom.

Much of the fine dust generated by scraping and sanding can be picked up with a collector.

You should purchase a good quality filter for your collector, as well as an ambient air cleaner and a good dust respirator.

I have an Oneida 1.5HP cyclone and does a good job of capturing the dust from my woodworking machinery and sanding dust from the lathe using a hood and flex hose.

Regards, Rod.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Joshua, if you are using the collector for capturing dust/chips from your lathe, you're going to be partially disappointed.

No. hehehe. My plan was to catch the wood dust when I am sanding items on my lathe. It amazes me how much "sawdust" I can generate when I do what I do at the lathe. I a good method for picking up the shavings and curlies from the floor. I just need to do something about the dust that has a history of making it's way into the house pretty constantly.

Thanks for the reply.

Joshua

[David Romano]

I found the Wynn filter stuff and I am just about to order the larger one that fits onto my HF. I could get the smaller cheaper one that they have a link to on their page but I would really rather have the large one that fits without having to make a donut collar.

<snip> The larger format is 274 sq. ft but the thinner one that needs a donut is 300 sq. feet. Is one really better than the other or are they both good enough? Which one did you use?


Joshua

Yeah, I think it is the 35A series. There are 2 choices.


I bought the 274 sqft cartridge, it's the cellulose one. The other is washable, but has alot less filter area. The Thien baffle will keep it so clean. just once a year you might blow or bang out the finest dust from the pleats. Also I don't like the way Wynn says to mount it. I drilled a hole in the top of the cartridge for a flapper (before I discovered the Thien baffle). Drill a hole in the top of yours, put a short bolt through it with rubber washers on both sides, then use some bungee style tie downs. to lash it to the DC supports/inlet pipe. Again, if you search the Creek for my posts, you should be able to find pics of everything.

David

[michael osadchuk]

Is this the thread you mentioned? http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=74713

I found it a touch short on details that I would need a first time builder of one of these. Or at least what I thought I would need. I will have to keep searching.



Joshua

Yeah, that is one good long thread on this sawmill creek website, but Phil Thien has a separate website that you will find newer postings on these modifications..... google 'phil thien' and look for the 'c.gallery' listing.....

good luck

michael