Need advice on Combination machine purchase

[John Harden]

Hello, I've been around here awhile, but don't post very much. I'm a hobbyist woodworker who builds furniture using primarily solid stock, though I do a bit of veneering and occasionally use sheet goods.

I'm prepared to make the switch to a saw/shaper combo and a jointer/planer combo (two seperate units) to replace my stand alone machines (PM-66, Delta 8" jointer, etc.). This would be to save some space, but also to gain some capacities and new capabilities. For example, I don't currently own a shaper and I also like the functionality and inherent safety offered by a sliding table.

The purpose of my post is to get the opinions of folks who have first hand experience with Mini-Max Elite series and/or Felder 700 series machines as these are the two I'm considering. My primary requirements are:

16" jointer/planer capacity
8.5'-9' slider capacity
Single phase

Power drive and digital readout on the planer would be nice, but not a deal killer.

I've done a number of searches here, read quite a few threads and have learned quite a bit. I'm also a member of the MOG and FOG, Yahoo user groups which have also been a great source of information. Over the next three days, I'm visiting the shops of MiniMax and Felder customers who live near me, and who have the machines I am interested in. In the meantime, my Felder and Mini-Max reps are both sharpening their pencils and refining their quotes.

I currently own a MM20 bandsaw, so I'm well acquainted with the quality and excellent customer service offered by Mini-Max. No complaints there at all. On the other hand I also own a BMW motorcycle and admire the German/Austrian penchant for overengineering everything. I've heard only good things about the quality of Felder, but this seems to come at a steep price.

Not looking to start any arguments here or to discuss customer service merits, etc. I'm really interested in hearing from folks who have used similiar machines from both companies and can offer learned opinions on quality of product compared to cost.

Also, what about accessories for both companies? I know Felder has a ton as I have their catalogue, but what about MM? Their website doesn't show much and frankly, I forgot to ask my MM rep.

Regards,

John

[Chris Padilla]

I have the FS41-Elite. It is actually 41 cm (which is a hair over 16" ).

I find it a very good machine to use. Mine has the 3-knife Tersa head and I believe the newer ones have 4 knives. Piece of cake to change...couldn't be easier.

I do not have any extras and just hand crank the wheel during changeovers. It is not that big a deal.

I also have an MM20 so lottsa white in my shop and I very satisfied. I don't you can go wrong with either brankd, frankly.

[Charlie Plesums]

I chose the MiniMax CU410 elite over the Felder 700 series because the price was MUCH lower when I bought it, the design was simpler (more maintainable) and the functionality was excellent.

One of the zingers was configuring the Felder... everything was an option, and hard to decide what was important when I hadn't used one. One of the things MiniMax did on the bigger machines was make almost all the options standard equipment, so they wouldn't have to market all sorts of combinations and upgrade kits. They have gone back to a few options, but not many.

I would be glad to chat in person if you want to give me a call, or send me a phone number or skype ID. I love my machine, and have used it full time since I retired over 4 years ago.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

John, from an unabashed Felder fan, I bet you won't be sorry if you spend the extra. Nothing wrong with MM, good stuff, but look at both machines and see what you think. I did, and chose Felder. Hard to describe, but I guess you could say that Felder is built exactly as you would expect a $26,000 machine to be.

Personally I like the options. I have a list of add ons that I'm interested in if the right project comes up, but I don't need them right now. I like to have the machine that is built exactly as I want it, to be most efficient for my workflow. It seemed to me that buying a Felder was like ordering your new car custom built from the factory, while MM is like finding one you like on the lot.

Honestly, you can't go wrong with either, but I still love that little buzz I get every time that I even see my Felder. What a machine...

[John Harden]

Thanks for all the helpful replies. I just returned from visiting the shop of a local guy who has a Felder KF700SP sliding panel saw with shaper and a AD741 jointer/planer w/power drive. These are the exact two machines I'm considering if I were to go the Felder route. They are certainly built like a tank and that 9.5' slider is L O N G!!!!!

Its true that the Felder is pretty bare bones and when you add in accessories that the price goes up.

On Sunday, I'm visiting the shop of an owner of a CU410E Elite combo, so I'll be able to compare the two.

One question you folks might be able to help with. MM has a couple of machines I'm considering. One is a ST-4 Elite Saw/Shaper combo and the other is a S315WS sliding panel saw. Besides the shaper, what is the difference between these two saws? Are the castings or sliding tables of different qualities or are they basically identical? Just curious.

Also, do the Mini Max sliders or combo's come with an electric braking system?

Regards,

John

[charles argo]

I just placed an order for the Felder CF741SP, which is the full combo, in May. I found the Felder rep easy to work with and helpful in deciding on the option package. I personally like the fact that I can configure the machine to suit my needs. I spent a couple of weeks deciding on the options, and am confident I covered all the bases. I would be happy to explain my choices if you are interested.

[John Harden]

Charles, I'd love to here your logic for your choices of options.

For reference, I'm leaning towards:

2800mm slider length - to clear the blade while ripping/crosscutting 8' panels or boards.
1500mm outrigger table - for size and capacity
43", small crosscut fence - I'll use this for mitering smaller boards while the outrigger is not mounted.
Two eccentric clamps - self explanatory
31" rip fence - I do most ripping on the slider
Parallel cutting device - Makes ripping longer boards on the slider easier.
Router spindle - To use roueter bits with shaper unit
Remote start on slider - convenience
Mechanical digital readout on shaper height and saw tilt - for accuracy
Mechanical scoring
Precision mitre indexing
Cast iron extension

For the jointer all I was going to get was the digital power drive.

I use a Leigh, FMT for most mortising, so I doubt I'd get my money's worth out of a mortiser.

Any suggestions on shaper cutters? I do a lot of template routing, and lately, I'm pushing the upper limits (on size) of what a router can handle. Is there a good template following shaper head you'd recommend? A lot of my templates are curved. Will I need the small shaper head for curved work?

Regards,

John

[Wes Grass]

The 'Comfort' guard for the jointer is nice, as it folds out of the way when you're jointing wide boards.

They have 'planing' heads for the shaper, and guide rings/bearings to stack with them. Available in spiral indexable insert or straight blades. They'll make your router look like a Dremel tool ;-)

I've found the digital indicators for angle adjustment not exactly accurate, but close enough to get you dialed in to use a digital gauge like Wixey makes if you need the last fraction of a degree.

I also have one for the saw height adjustment. Haven't got one for the shaper yet. The inch version doesn't read in a logical manner, as the machine moves 2mm per turn. But the .01" counter is close enough for saw height, and you can use the dial for fine adjustments after that. Probably fine for the shaper as well.

I left the cast iron extension attached to the planer table, and got a couple of the wide aluminum ones for the saw. 'A couple', as I added rails to my Laguna bandsaw to adapt the Felder extensions to it. They're expensive, but a really substantial chunk of aluminum.

I have short slider, so can't help you on the outrigger. The indexed mitering looks really nice.

[charles argo]

Hello John,
I ordered my machine 5hp/1ph so I didn't have to fuss with a converter.
I went with the 2800mm slider for the same reason you stated. I also ordered the 1500mm outrigger and the remote start option.
I got the 43" fence as well, along with the extension table for the slider to use in conjunction with the short fence. This is the extension with the "P" coupling.
I added the short rip fence. When you use the regular rip fence as a bump stop with the slider, you have to pull it back even with the blade. This leaves part of the fence hanging way out in front of your machine. Short rip fence solves this problem nicely.
A standard splitter for doing non-through cuts (12.5.122). The stock riving knife sits above the blade.
miter indexing.
Eccentric clamp - would like an air driven clamp (Big Squeeze) at some point.
tilt angle dials in shaper and saw handwheels.
mechanical scoring.
2 cast iron extensions. The jointer tables are shorter on the combo than the regular AD741, so I wanted one front and back if needed.
An extra crosscut stop. You will use this more than you might think.
Power feeder with tilt away bracket. I wouldn't consider doing many shaper operations without one.
Heavy duty curve shaping device -aka- Aigner BowmouldMaster. If you do curved work on the shaper, this is the nicest, safest accessory for it. Not cheap though. With curved moulding stops and guide bearing it's $1000. It also works as a tenoning hood. Refer to David Best's Survival Guide.
Another nice Aigner product - the counter profile workpiece holder(01.0.019). Allows you to hold narrow pieces when working on the shaper - doing coping cuts for instance.
I did not get the parallel cutting device. My rep told me feedback to him was that it was fussy and slow to set up. Most guys just rip narrow stock conventionally with the fence, using the slider as an assist. So I passed on that one.
I also passed on the router spindle. I just don't think that big shaper fence is what I want to do small router details with. I'm keeping my Jess-Em router table for all router operations and using the shaper only as a shaper.
I ordered the power drive option for the planer table. Having seen this work in person, I wouldn't go without it. I also added the comfort guard so I wouldn't run into it walking around the machine.
I am also getting the FD250 mortiser as a stand alone machine. I do entry doors as well as furniture and felt justified going with a dedicated machine.

As for cutters, I think I'm going to try a Byrd helical head for template work. You can get them in a variety of sizes, you just need a bearing to match. Felder sells a spiral cutter as well, so does Amana. Felder's stuff is all 30mm, so decide if you're going to use them as a tooling source. You might want to get a 30mm spindle. I ordered the 1-1/4". Best of luck with your decision.

Charles

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Hello John,
I ordered my machine 5hp/1ph so I didn't have to fuss with a converter.
I went with the 2800mm slider for the same reason you stated. I also ordered the 1500mm outrigger and the remote start option.
I got the 43" fence as well, along with the extension table for the slider to use in conjunction with the short fence. This is the extension with the "P" coupling.
I added the short rip fence. When you use the regular rip fence as a bump stop with the slider, you have to pull it back even with the blade. This leaves part of the fence hanging way out in front of your machine. Short rip fence solves this problem nicely.
A standard splitter for doing non-through cuts (12.5.122). The stock riving knife sits above the blade.
miter indexing.
Eccentric clamp - would like an air driven clamp (Big Squeeze) at some point.
tilt angle dials in shaper and saw handwheels.
mechanical scoring.
2 cast iron extensions. The jointer tables are shorter on the combo than the regular AD741, so I wanted one front and back if needed.
An extra crosscut stop. You will use this more than you might think.
Power feeder with tilt away bracket. I wouldn't consider doing many shaper operations without one.
Heavy duty curve shaping device -aka- Aigner BowmouldMaster. If you do curved work on the shaper, this is the nicest, safest accessory for it. Not cheap though. With curved moulding stops and guide bearing it's $1000. It also works as a tenoning hood. Refer to David Best's Survival Guide.
Another nice Aigner product - the counter profile workpiece holder(01.0.019). Allows you to hold narrow pieces when working on the shaper - doing coping cuts for instance.
I did not get the parallel cutting device. My rep told me feedback to him was that it was fussy and slow to set up. Most guys just rip narrow stock conventionally with the fence, using the slider as an assist. So I passed on that one.
I also passed on the router spindle. I just don't think that big shaper fence is what I want to do small router details with. I'm keeping my Jess-Em router table for all router operations and using the shaper only as a shaper.
I ordered the power drive option for the planer table. Having seen this work in person, I wouldn't go without it. I also added the comfort guard so I wouldn't run into it walking around the machine.
I am also getting the FD250 mortiser as a stand alone machine. I do entry doors as well as furniture and felt justified going with a dedicated machine.

As for cutters, I think I'm going to try a Byrd helical head for template work. You can get them in a variety of sizes, you just need a bearing to match. Felder sells a spiral cutter as well, so does Amana. Felder's stuff is all 30mm, so decide if you're going to use them as a tooling source. You might want to get a 30mm spindle. I ordered the 1-1/4". Best of luck with your decision.

Charles

Charles, you're 99% correct, but a couple things. Most of Felders cutters are 40mm, not 30mm, and the standard riving knife will adjust under the apex of a 12" blade for non through cuts. A dedicated splitter is not needed for this function.

Highly agree on the short rip fence. As well as being in the way, when the long one is moved back for cut offs, it also balances in the wrong place.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Charles, I'd love to here your logic for your choices of options.

For reference, I'm leaning towards:

2800mm slider length - to clear the blade while ripping/crosscutting 8' panels or boards.
1500mm outrigger table - for size and capacity
43", small crosscut fence - I'll use this for mitering smaller boards while the outrigger is not mounted.
Two eccentric clamps - self explanatory
31" rip fence - I do most ripping on the slider
Parallel cutting device - Makes ripping longer boards on the slider easier.
Router spindle - To use roueter bits with shaper unit
Remote start on slider - convenience
Mechanical digital readout on shaper height and saw tilt - for accuracy
Mechanical scoring
Precision mitre indexing
Cast iron extension

For the jointer all I was going to get was the digital power drive.

I use a Leigh, FMT for most mortising, so I doubt I'd get my money's worth out of a mortiser.

Any suggestions on shaper cutters? I do a lot of template routing, and lately, I'm pushing the upper limits (on size) of what a router can handle. Is there a good template following shaper head you'd recommend? A lot of my templates are curved. Will I need the small shaper head for curved work?

Regards,

John

John, a 2500mm slider will clear the blade with 8ft sheet goods. I do it on mine all the time. No harm in a longer slider, if you have the extra room to have another foot of table residing in all the time.

That eccentric clamp is a monster. I really doubt that you will ever need two for anything that I can think of.

The only differences between your list and my CF 741 Pro is the 2500mm slider, and I use an 1 1/4" and a 40mm spindle, no router. I also did not order the parallel cutting device, but am planing on buying it. Like Charles mentioned, I have a F38 feeder on a tilt away stand. You need the feeder for the shaper. With the tilt away bracket, it will work fantastically on the jointer too. There is a horizontal extension tube for the feeder bracket that would put the feeder in front of the saw blade as well. The standard bracket will also work to power feed on the saw, but the feeder will be right at the blade. I also have the 240 fence for the shaper, which I highly recommend with the micro adjust feature.

Charles also recommended two stops for the crosscut fence, as do I.

You'll want two extensions. One to leave on the saw table, behind the blade, and the other to leave on the planner outfeed. I bought the cast iron, but aluminum would be fine.

My machine has all electronically adjusted speed control, which I love. I honestly don't know if they all have that or not, but I like to be able to speed up the saw for the dado head (another piece of tooling that you need), and slow it down for 315mm blades. FYI, do NOT run a 315mm blade and the mechanical scoring unit together. You will ruin your blades. The scoring unit is for 300mm or smaller blades. It is also great to be able to simply turn down the speed of a large shaper cutter, or the mortiser.

Powerdrive for the planner is also what I have. Not sure Digidrive was worth the extra at the time. I would buy the Digidrive now, simply to have a set of one button memorized stops. Powerdrive works very well though, and $2500ish less, IIRK.

Talk to your salesman about some deals on Felder tooling. They will probably give you a good discount at the time of purchase of your CF, and the Leitz tooling that they sell is good stuff. What you need really depends on what you are building.

BTW, if you care to see a pinup of my machine set up to do a goofy function, check out my "about me" page for some photos. Have fun with the decisions!

[Leigh Betsch]

Hi John. I own both of the MM machines you are looking at. I've been very happy with both machines. I don't know the differences between the ST-4 and the S315WS. I bought the ST-4 because it had all the options I wanted, rear tilt shaper, digital fence, 8.5 ft slider, scoring blade, power feeder on a swing away mount. A couple of things I like about the the ST-4, you might want to check the S315WS: the ST-4 scoring unit can be used while still using the 12" saw blade, some saws require you to mount a 10" blade when you use the scoring unit. The ST-4 also has a separate motor for the scoring unit. The scoring unit also tilts with the main blade. The ST-4 power feeder mounts on an arm that swings away to the side, some mounts tilt down, so you need to do some lifting to swing it up. The ST-4 uses a 5/8 dia saw blade bore, so you can still use your old 10" saw blades and dado head. Some saws have larger spindles or special saw blade mounts, so you need to modify or replace your old blades and dado head. The ST-4 does not have electronic speed control on the saw or shaper motors. My ST-4 is three phase, 6.4hp motors on both the shaper and saw, 1hp motor on the scoring blade. I run it off a 3 phase rotary converter, which I keep in another room because of the noise and switch it on and off with a remote starter. If you buy a single phase unit I believe the motors are 4.5 hp.

I lost interest with the Felder because I couldn't get it through the salesman's head that I didn't want a Hammer and for some reason he just wouldn't give me much info on the Felder line.
I was unable to see a Felder before I bought my MM, and I don't have much Felder knowledge but my impression is that the Felder is a great machine and has some advantages in the electronic speed control, electronic drives, and optional accessories but the cost of the options can add up quickly.

Having said all this if I were to do it again I would look a bit harder at a separate saw and shaper. I think I would use the shaper more if I could just leave it set up all the time. I bought the combo because I felt it was a better value that a separate saw and sliding table shaper.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Leigh, you bring up a couple good points that I forgot about. MM uses a regular saw arbor, I don't remember the size? I know the Felder has the two pins for braking (it stops the blade in 2 to 3 seconds after you hit the off button). This feature gives the MM more adaptability where the Felder requires a Felder or custom blade or dado. I have a couple Forrest blades for mine. MM does not have the braking though.

I also like the digital fence better on Leigh's saw, then I do the system on mine. Felder has a digital fence, but it's an option.

[charles argo]

the standard riving knife will adjust under the apex of a 12" blade for non through cuts. A dedicated splitter is not needed for this function.

Steve, I specifically asked that question to the rep and he said I'd need the standard splitter for submerged cuts. Oh well,at least by Felder standards the splitter wasn't too expensive. You are right about talking to your rep about tooling at the time of purchase. I was able to get the Felder dado set as an "incentive " at no charge. All in all I thought I got very substantial discounts in the outfitting of my machine. They got hit hard by last Fall's economic meltdown and were aggresively discounting this Spring to generate orders.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, I specifically asked that question to the rep and he said I'd need the standard splitter for submerged cuts. Oh well,at least by Felder standards the splitter wasn't too expensive. You are right about talking to your rep about tooling at the time of purchase. I was able to get the Felder dado set as an "incentive " at no charge. All in all I thought I got very substantial discounts in the outfitting of my machine. They got hit hard by last Fall's economic meltdown and were aggresively discounting this Spring to generate orders.

Very agressively discounting! Right after I bought my machine, they started sending your choice of a bandsaw or dust collector with a CF. Of course, I bought mine a month too soon.

I only run the one knife, the one that accepts the shield. I think we're talking about the same thing... I use 300mm, 315mm, and 12" blades. All of these allow the riving knife to run about a mm below the apex of the blade. As an aside, that knife/shield system is pretty close to perfect IMHO. On my previous saws, blade guards always seemed to be in the way. I actualy enjoy using the Felder system.



Just added a photo of the "Euro splitter" that I use.