Masking Clean Lines with Dyes

[Mark Crenshaw]

I am in the finish stage of my guitar project. Here is the layout of the finish I'm going for.



I have tried using Mixol tints in clear lacquer but they obscure the figure of the wood too much. So, I have decided to try dyes directly on the wood surface for the red and blue...I'll use bleaching for the white. Problem is, I can't get clean lines between the different colors...the dyes bleed under the masking.

I toyed with the idea of cutting a thin channel on the boundries of the colors and installing a thin white celluloid binding but it really kills the design.

I thought about using wax, foam or some other substance that would get into the grain on the masked edge to keep the dye from bleeding but I'm not sure how I would get it back out of the grain. I even thought I could use a row of cotton pads on top of the taped edge to wick the dye up and over the tape. Not sure that would work.

I'm stumped. Any ideas on how I can do this without cutting a physical barrier into the guitar top? I'm so close on this project and this has already cost me a week of experimenting.

Peace,
Mark

[Todd Carpenter]

Mark,

Since no one has chimmed in on this one...

Dyes are going to be really tough to mask, just because of their nature, but, I would think if you were to use the new frog tape to mask and then use an airbrush to build it lightly, that would probably get you what you want. I would be tempted to use an aniline dye (alcohol based) because it dries so quickly - limiting the chance of it bleeding through.

HTH, and let us know how it comes out.
Todd

[Jim Becker]

I think that Todd has the right idea for this particular situation. Masking and spraying alcohol soluble dye is probably going to be your best bet to get clean lines...spraying to give you great control over the amount of the dye and alcohol soluble so it flashes off very fast with minimal bleed. I would probably still score the line, too, with a sharp blade. I suggest you try this on scrap of the same material you've built your guitar body from.

[Mark Crenshaw]

Mark,

Since no one has chimmed in on this one...

Dyes are going to be really tough to mask, just because of their nature, but, I would think if you were to use the new frog tape to mask and then use an airbrush to build it lightly, that would probably get you what you want. I would be tempted to use an aniline dye (alcohol based) because it dries so quickly - limiting the chance of it bleeding through.

HTH, and let us know how it comes out.
Todd

Hi Todd, Jim.

Thanks for the ideas. I hadn't considered spraying the dye in alcohol. That seems like a real possibility. I'm going to pick up some this afternoon and do some testing. I still can't bring myself to score the surface of the guitar though...may have to. If I did, would it be visable after clear coats and level sanding even if it's completely filled in?

Peace,
Mark

[Todd Carpenter]

Mark,

This is one of those questions where there probably isn't a real easy answer. It's going to depend on the wood, how deep you cut, how thick the blade is you use...

You get the idea - best bet - try it on some scrap of the same type of wood first...

[Mark Crenshaw]

Mark,

This is one of those questions where there probably isn't a real easy answer. It's going to depend on the wood, how deep you cut, how thick the blade is you use...

You get the idea - best bet - try it on some scrap of the same type of wood first...

Hi Todd.

I did some testing today and the results were very encouraging. I was able to get a pretty clean line. I used TransTint dyes in denatured alcohol and sprayed lots of passes keeping it dry as possible. The lines were OK, but I think I can improve it by stretching out the intervals beteen passes.

I was thinking that by starting with red, I could get the color I want, then while it's still masked off, cover it with a sealer coat. Then move on to the blue with the red better protected. I might still get some bleeding but the sealer should reduce it.

I guess I still have lots of testing to do. I'll keep you posted on the approach and results.

Peace,
Mark

[Larry Fox]

I agree with others that it is going to be very tough to get clean lines. I would also be hesitant to score it with something thin like a knife as dye will likely creep into the score and it will show up darker. Is the top made yet? If not, have you considered doing a layup of dyed veneer? You would get 0 bleedthrough and should be pretty easy to do as your design (while very cool) is not that involved.

[Mark Crenshaw]

I agree with others that it is going to be very tough to get clean lines. I would also be hesitant to score it with something thin like a knife as dye will likely creep into the score and it will show up darker. Is the top made yet? If not, have you considered doing a layup of dyed veneer? You would get 0 bleedthrough and should be pretty easy to do as your design (while very cool) is not that involved.

Hi Larry. The top is already completed and it's different from the above render in that it is carved and the controls are backloaded as below.





I had thought of this issue before building but I thought lacquer shader coats would get me what I wanted...they haven't so far. My thought before attaching the top was to size it to the body, carve it separate of the body, cut it into the shapes needed, stain it, then glue it back together. But getting it flush to the bindings would have been impossible without some scraping and sanding which would destroy the dye.

So, here I am. I may try spraying these TransTint dyes in lacquer and see if they give me a better result than the Mixol tints I tried previously. They seem to build up color much faster than the tints did and they don't obscure the grain as much, if at all..

I'll report back when I figured this out.

Thanks for the input and encouragement from all who replied.

Peace,
Mark

[Steve Jenkins]

What kind of tape are you using. You might go to an automotive paint supply house and get some 3M striping tape. It is a plastic tape and you can get it to really stick down if you use a block to press it. It doesn't bleed as bad as regular masking tape

[Mark Crenshaw]

What kind of tape are you using. You might go to an automotive paint supply house and get some 3M striping tape. It is a plastic tape and you can get it to really stick down if you use a block to press it. It doesn't bleed as bad as regular masking tape

Hi Steve. I was using a green painters tape that I picked up at an automotive paint shop. I do have some plastic striping tape that I was using to tape my binding...I'll give it a try on the dye masking.

Thanks!

Peace,
Mark

P.S. I'm a Texan (born in San Antonio) living in the midwest. I miss Texas!

[Leo Graywacz]

Put a thin layer of clear on the whole face of the guitar. Then sand it will 600-1000 grit. Then tape it and then you will get crisp clean lines. This may not give you the depth you want from he dyes though.

Another way is to use a dye that is compatible with Acetone. The acetone will flash very quickly and stop the bleeding much better than Alcohol.

If you mix the dye with a lacquer and a fast thinner, then the color will lock into the grain and prevent the bleeding, it will still bleed a little, but it should lock up quickly.

[Mark Crenshaw]

Put a thin layer of clear on the whole face of the guitar. Then sand it will 600-1000 grit. Then tape it and then you will get crisp clean lines. This may not give you the depth you want from he dyes though.

Another way is to use a dye that is compatible with Acetone. The acetone will flash very quickly and stop the bleeding much better than Alcohol.

If you mix the dye with a lacquer and a fast thinner, then the color will lock into the grain and prevent the bleeding, it will still bleed a little, but it should lock up quickly.

Hi Leo. Thanks for you input and ideas. It looks like I have a lot to test. Last week I was feeling pretty hopeless about this and now I'm excited about it again!

Peace,
Mark

[Mark Crenshaw]

Another way is to use a dye that is compatible with Acetone. The acetone will flash very quickly and stop the bleeding much better than Alcohol.

I just remembered that Acetone melts the binding material I used on the body...that wouldn't be good. They use Acetone to melt different color bindings together when making laminate bindings.

Scratch that one off the list of options.

Peace,
Mark

[Leo Graywacz]

Then you will have to scratch off almost all lacquers because the thinners in them comprise of a lot of acetone.

[Mark Crenshaw]

Then you will have to scratch off almost all lacquers because the thinners in them comprise of a lot of acetone.

Hmmm. Then I'll have to check my memory because these bindings are lacquered over all the time. Perhaps it takes some soaking to actually melt the plastic. Stew Mac should have the answer on this since they sell the binding and offer the acetone for laminate bindings.

Thanks Leo!

Peace,
Mark