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Thread: David Savage on Japanese chisels

  1. #1
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    Post David Savage on Japanese chisels

    As per usual, the source is an email sent to me today. This time I will refrain from commenting as I've only recently managed to get all the egg off my face from the last episode.

    So far we have looked at two different brands of bevel edged chisels one American and one English. Now we need to consider the Japanese. When these blades became popular in the West I was one of the first to advocate their use. This is because of the hardness of the blade and the sharpness of the cutting edge these ages were as sharp as the cold rolled steel blades that we were used to in the 1980s and 1990s the difference was that they held their edges between five times in eight times longer. we know this because I did a test in my workshop we took a piece of maple and ask an apprentice to pare back with a sharp blade and saw how much he could pare before the blade lost its edge. Not a terribly scientific test I know but it was the best we could do.

    These blades are harder I believe, they are closer to the old-fashioned cast steel or crucible steel of the tools made before World War II. These were blades that had been heated and hammered. Their construction is laminated steel they have a hard surface which forms the cutting edge and the bottom of the blade laminated onto a soft steel which forms in the body of the tool. This laminating process requires heating and hammering.

    Although these blades if you buy them from a small maker are absolutely superb in their edge holding capacity, I don't think they are the ideal furniture makers chisel. These are carpenters tools made to be struck with a hammer designed to be used on large sections of softwood. Furniture makers need more delicate tools than the standard Japanese chisel. I do have a few of these in my toolbox and I will continue to use them but I mix them with and lighter Western blades.

    A problem we have seen is the disappearance of a small highly skilled Japanese blacksmith. Most of the chisels imported to the west are made now in small factories and the quality is not as high as we are used to getting from the old master blacksmith's. When I was in Tokyo I was taken to meet a blacksmith, his workshop was probably smaller than a one car garage. He worked there with his 83-year-old father. I asked him to sell me a marking knife he asked my name and then proceeded to carve into the handle the symbols that indicated that this knife is mine. Then he turned to his father held the blade to his forehead and showed his workmanship to the old man. And the old man gave an appreciative grunt. Dad was the quality control department, the blacksmith was asking the old man "have I upheld the standards and values of your lifes work," the old man was acknowledging his son's achievements and congratulating him on his workmanship without giving him an inch more. All in a grunt.
    "If you have all your fingers, you can convert to Metric"

  2. #2
    Poor apprentice.

  3. #3
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    This guys stuff is getting painful to read.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  4. #4
    Painful?
    I thought that was an interesting point of view.
    or are you talking about Hiltons Ralps? ;-)
    Steven Thomas

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Thomas View Post
    Painful?
    or are you talking about Hiltons Ralps? ;-)
    Yeah probably me. My poker face is often painful to read.

    Anyway, to lighten the mood, here is something completely off-topic.

    Picture of a lightning storm in my city last week. Johannesburg/Sandton.

    joburg_lightning.jpeg
    "If you have all your fingers, you can convert to Metric"

  6. #6
    I have plenly of pre-war chisels and plane irons.
    yeah, they're great and all, but do the edges last 5-8 times longer than my new chisels? not really.
    I think the fog of memory is at play here for this guy.
    he probably remembers fondly the days before polio vaccines when mean were men and women weren't allowed to vote.

  7. #7
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    Kind of cliched. The level of information we read 10 years ago.

    To whom do you think this is directed? And to what purpose?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Thomas View Post
    Painful?
    I thought that was an interesting point of view.
    or are you talking about Hiltons Ralps? ;-)
    No not Hilton...this Savage dude's crap writing is just hard to follow. I also don't think its particularly informative. He spews out a few thoughts, without much context, and fails to make any real point. Of course, that's just my opinion, which isn't worth a lot.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

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    From a totally non personal stand point David's work is not for me. His writing too does not appeal. That said even though his work and writing are not my favorites I am always in awe of what he or his students create http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/gallery_storage.htm http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/ne...niture-design/ . In what is an austere climate it's good to see people pushing the boundaries. My 2 cents, ignore the writing and look at the pictures in wonderment.

  10. #10
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    My 1965 Marples chisels are just fine. I do have a set of English pre war carving tools (I think they are Addis). Maybe they are pre WWI? Anyway,they are so hard they wouldn't hold a decent cutting edge. Much as I disliked doing it,I (being in the 18th. C. musical instrument maker's shop at the time),had to lay a small gouge I was using,on top of the hot guitar side bending iron (Our only source of heat). I let it slowly heat up to a medium straw color. Then,the gouge was fine,and held an edge well. This on already OLD English good brand tools! Should have been perfect to begin with!!

    I have mentioned before that as toolmaker,I'd be brought antique chisels whose laminated steel cutting edge had become loose at the weld. Another's laminated steel cutting edge was just not hard at all,and the edge peeled back like a fish hook. I had to repair such tools that you'd think were from "The good old days". I can tell you,those good old days were not always good!! I think quality depended upon how drunk the workman was.
    Last edited by george wilson; 11-18-2013 at 9:05 AM.

  11. #11
    I like the japanese chisels, straight up. If I had to go all around again and spend anew, I probably would have a lot fewer chisels and something cheap, though. (not japanese cheap, just something cheap in general).

    The idea that the chisels are intended for soft wood is maybe true, but they hold their edges much better in hardwoods also. All you have to do is sit down with two chisels and chop out a bunch of HBDT in hardwoods and see which one lasts. The japanese chisel can be swiped a couple of times on a finish stone between each couple of sockets and be in the same shape (as in 5 seconds worth of rubbing) and still be as sharp as you started when you're done with them. You could probably do the entire case without sharpening if you wanted to.

    His supposition that they're plainer is correct, but they also have more carbon in them than probably everything but razor steel from the west.

    I've seen a lot of videos of people making small delicate work with the chisels he calls construction chisels, too. There are plenty of more delicate chisels available now, too, but most good things are expensive in relative terms to used western tools (which are functionally just as good, just a lot harder to find when you look for stuff that's specifically for cabinetmaking).

    (Hilton, I didn't think you had any egg on face from any of these. Everyone is busy being offended by the writer's inability to make a coherent sentence, but that's not a reflection on the messenger.)
    Last edited by David Weaver; 11-18-2013 at 8:23 AM.

  12. #12
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    I've seen some pretty fine and amazing things done with these carpenters tools.

    I don't think you have egg on your face from these Hilton. They've sparked interesting debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Wilkins View Post

    I don't think you have egg on your face from these Hilton. They've sparked interesting debate.
    Agreed. I've enjoyed these posts in spite of the pain reading them has inflicted upon me.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Haydon View Post
    My 2 cents, ignore the writing and look at the pictures in wonderment.
    I like this idea.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

  15. #15
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    Why all the sudden interest in Savage's opinions?

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