Guidance on Saw Purchase

[Todd Hoppe]

Hi All:

Could you please recommend a good first handsaw for joinery? I know there are many options (and many types); however, I'd like to find a saw, or combination of saws for $125 or less. I'd like to try out hand cut dovetails. I also would like to use the saw (or saws) to try cutting tenons.

I know that my question probably seems naive to many of you experienced neanders, however, I know nothing about hand tools.

For the past couple of months, I have been working on a crib for my first child, who is due November 7. I posted some images of the design in the Design Forum. It is based on a commercially available crib (picture attached).

Last night, I was attempting to make the tenons on the tops of the slats that are mortised into the curved top stile (or rail?) on each side. I got most of the tenon cut with my dado stack, but tried to finish it up (e.g, cutting the narrow shoulders) with a $7 flush cut saw from Menards.

It was surprisingly fun and relaxing to do that hand work, but I KNOW that a better saw would be easier, more accurrate, and more fun.

What should I buy? Where should I buy it?

Thanks!

[Thomas Crawford]

If you are up for learning to sharpen and set a saw up front there are many old Disston's available on the used market. If you buy them sharpened they cost more of course.

At the bare minimum you need the dovetail saw and then a crosscut carcase saw. I *think* the most common advice is that you can use those two saws as long as the tenons you are cutting aren't too long for the dovetail saw (height of the blade).

Otherwise you will need to add a rip-filed carcase or tenon saw.

I think $125-$150 probably gets you 3 sharpened and ready to use saws (old but not collector quality) off of the bay.

I've done a lot of research on this myself and ended up buying new Lie-Nielsen saws.

[Brian Kent]

I am just starting to use western saws. For the first 3 years of woodworking I have been using a top-rated dovetail-cutting "Dozuki" from Rockler:
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...&filter=dozuki

and a two-sided Ryoba for rip and crosscut. I think this is the one from Japanwoodworker:
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/produ...&dept_id=13088

The Dozuki was $45. The Ryoba was $37. Under $100 for the two of them with tax and shipping.

I am just learning on western saws. They cut much better than a cheap western saw. I cannot see how they hold up to a good western saw, new or old and sharpened, but they have served me well and my low budget gave me an opportunity to learn to saw on a pull cut.

Brian

[Casey Gooding]

I agree with Thomas about the old Disston saws. There are plenty out there and you can get a great set if you're smart about your purchase.
If you want to go new, I'd recommend the Veritas dovetail saw. Haven't tried it, but many people say it's probably the best bang for your buck.
If you want to spend a bit more there are plenty of other premium sawmakers these days.
I personally have a Lie-Nielsen set and love them. My dovetail and carcase saws are actually original Independence Saws (with matching serial numbers)from before Lie-Nielsen bought them (anyone catch the gloat?). I am very satisfied with this set and would recommend them to anyone. That being said, a dovetail, carcase and two tenon saws (one crosscut, one rip) from L-N would be a bit above your budget.

Enough digression. For starting out, I would get the Veritas dovetail saw and some Disston tenon saws.

[Gary Herrmann]

You can also get your vintage saws sharpened by folks like Steve Cooke for $10 - $15. Isn't LV coming out with a tenon saw in the Fall? That and their new dovetail would be less than $125.

[Ken Shepard]

For a beginner, I would recommend the LV dovetail saw. The old Disston 8" and 10" backsaws that are usually used for dovetails have a wider kerf and unless set up by someone who knows what he is doing (rip filed, slight set) can be very frustrating to use. I tried using Japanese saws and gent's dovetail saws, but didn't really produce a dovetail I could be proud of until I got my LV saw. I now have learned to set up and sharpen saws and have a bunch of old Disstons that I enjoy using, but my current go-to saw when quality matters is a L-N. So, bottom line, if you have $60, buy the LV: if you have $120, buy the L-N.

[Robert Rozaieski]

I'm not going to recommend any specific brand of saw (new or old) as that's really a personal preference (heck, I made my own). However, I will say this. If you want to cut tenons and dovetails with the same saw, go with a bigger saw, commonly called a tenon saw.

If you purchase a "dovetail" saw, the saw itself will be shorter, the effective cutting depth will be smaller and there will likely be more teeth per inch. This is because saws labeled as dovetail saws are typically designed for cutting dovetails in stock up to about 7/8" to 1" thick maximum.

Most tenons I cut with a saw are at least 2-2½" wide at a minimum (up to as much as 6" or 8" wide). Your crib project looks like it fits this tenon size as well. Using a short dovetail saw with a lot of teeth per inch to try to cut tenons like this and wider will make these cuts slow and inaccurate because the teeth will clog with sawdust long before they have the chance to clear the saw kerf. This makes the saw stop cutting and could throw it off track.

However, a longer "tenon" saw will be much better at cutting these tenons. In addition, it will also cut perfectly fine dovetails in 1/2" to 1" thick stock. The cut will be a little rougher than one from a dovetail saw would be because the tenon saw has fewer, larger teeth per inch but this won't really matter because the cut surface is inside the joint.

Eventually, if you stick with hand cutting your joinery, you will want both a dedicated tenon saw and a dedicated dovetail saw. However, if you only want to start with one, I would recommend going with the larger of the two, the tenon saw. I'd say something about 14" to 16" long with about 12 PPI should be good.

[Todd Hoppe]

Thanks for all the responses. At this point, I think I'm going to start with a Veritas dovetail saw. I beleive I can use that for dovetails and for some small tenons.

Also, I would rather start with new tools, so that I don't have to deal with both handwork and learning to set up and sharpen a saw at the same time.

If I want to hand cut large tenons, I'll likely continue using my (gasp!) table saw and dado stack. Eventually, however, you all may bring me over to your side, and I'll buy a larger saw for that .

I truly appreciate the guidance!

[lowell holmes]

Good decision.

I started with e-bay saws. I didn't know what a saw was supposed to do until I bought a LN dovetail saw. After that, I learned to sharpen and set up my old saws.

From what I read, the Veritas saw is a good one. It will set the standard for you.

[Richard Magbanua]

I may be looking at the Veritas dovetail saw as well. In fact, word is going around that Lee Valley is preparing to release a crosscut version of the same saw.

[Scott MacLEOD2]

By all means purchase the Lee Valley dovetail saw. I got mine the day they became available in the store and have absolutely no regrets. Since then I have purchase two L-N saws, a dovetail and a tenon. I have also flown down the slope purchasing every backsaw I can lay my hands on via ebay garage sales etc. I also sharpen and restore my own saws. The Lee Valley for dovetails and any garage sale special crosscut would be my suggestion.
Scott

fiat justitcia

[Rob Lee]

I may be looking at the Veritas dovetail saw as well. In fact, word is going around that Lee Valley is preparing to release a crosscut version of the same saw.

Hi -

Yes - crosscut (16 TPI) and the finer dovetail (20TPI) will be available in a few weeks... both at $65....

We are in pre-production (rough tooling only) on a larger format carcase saw - with the first samples in hand now... but still a lot of work to do on mold flow/tuning...

Cheers -

Rob

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

There's a nice one with a plastic handle for like $60.00 It's either lie nelson or veritas I forget which.

I made my saw into a journey and ended up making a saw toothing machine to get consistent teeth at a consistent angle in the 20 TPI spacing I wanted.

If you are dab hand with a file you might try making your own.