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Thread: Help a new guy understand capabilities of 4th axis lathe

  1. #1
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    Help a new guy understand capabilities of 4th axis lathe

    Hello everyone. I am a complete newbie when it comes to CNC other than some basic experience using my Carvewright. I am in the process of planning a more robust CNC machine purchase and would really appreciate some input on the 4th axis lathe options. I am specifically contemplating one of the Recoil Lathe options on a Camaster machine (Stinger).

    As I understand it, the lathe option simply allows a x-y-z axis router to cut on a cylindrical surface by simply rotating in indexed steps. I assume the lathe just turns from index to index rather than actually spinning at high speed like a regular lathe?

    If I have a flat carving (such as of some grapes), I assume that I can "wrap" that carving around a curved substrate using software like Aspire. This would then generate the tool paths to generate the carving on a cylindrically symmetrical substrate (ie a column). Is that the only use for this approach? I would assume we are talking about making decorative cylinders with this approach (ie candlesticks, table legs, columns).

    Here's my question. If I was to create a solid object in a modeling program (such as Rhino, for example) that had cylindrical symmetry. For example, a fire hydrant shape or some such. Would the approach best suited to carving this three dimensional structure (as a prototype) be carving it from a block on the standard table or is this the type of thing that works best with an indexing lathe? I am concerned that there are some software issues that I am unaware of involved in this process. I do realize that there are some cost issues involved since some of the 4th axis add on packages are pretty pricey.

    Bottom line: I'd like to better understand the capabilities of an indexing lathe attached to a cnc table and perhaps know more about its capabilities other than just "painting" a carving onto a cylinder. Any input would be greatly appreciated from the gurus.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Take a look at Guy Matthew's work. He is pretty much the expert around here when it comes to 4 axis work.

    Here are a few of his videos demonstrating 4 axis work.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I5NKZkLuw0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvazK...eature=channel
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RIPsZHinSc

    Wrapping allows you to wrap a 2d or 3d file around a cylinder, and you can also create simple files for twists/fluting etc... The Vectric software has built in wrapping support, and I believe will create flutes as well. There is free software out there for wrapping too.

    A basic description of 4th axis machining in 3D compared to wrapping would be that you are machining a 3D model within a cylinder. Of course if you watch Guy's video machining corbels, the 4th axis is flipping a flat part to machine multiple faces so your using the Y axis too.

    VisualMill/Rhino cam are popular options for generating 4th Axis toolpaths in 3D.
    Last edited by Michael Schwartz; 05-10-2010 at 7:03 PM.
    Hardware - Shopbot PRSstandard 48x96 with PC router.
    Software - Aspire 2.5, Partworks, Cut 3D, Photo V-Carve
    Open Source/Free - Inkscape, Open Office.

  3. #3
    While some software will only output indexed code, others (usually more expensive ) will let the 4th axis spin while your cutting, typically called continuous 4th axis.

    If you want to machine all sides of an object, a 4th axis is easier than flipping a part to do multiple sides, because you won't have the alignment issues.

    MeshCAM can do indexed 4 axis, and it's cheap. You might also want to look as DeskProto, but it's quite a bit more expensive.

  4. #4
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    Richard,
    I am not the man when it comes to 4th axis files I only build the machines.
    Kind of like all the folks that build cars but take a buss to work.

    The Recoil on the Cobra Line is a full 3D Indexing Lathe. We build them with power to spare so they have no problem running all 4 axes at the same time. The Stinger's mini Recoil is a great tool but we are pushing the limits on the power supply. We are running each motor at 4 amps and have a max of 12 amps. This means that the recoil is great for programs like V-carve, Aspire, & Wrapper. It will work with Rhino but you need to watch all 4 axis moving at the same time.

    The Stinger is designed to be a hobby machine. Although it is built like our other lines it does have its limitations.

    Folks to talk to is Guy as mentioned and Jim
    Joey Jarrard
    US Router Tools


  5. #5
    what a coincidence, the machine is running right now and i am cutting a chess player "king" in full rotational axis in cherry, i left it running and have the night watchman at the shop watching the machine so i will have more on this tommorrow. i watched about a third of the finish but had to come home, next week there will be a stinger in the barn so i may just not go to work!!

    be glad to help what joey is not realizing is tha in raster mode on rotational axis there is minimal power needed for the y as the a takes over for x, i am sure using my large lathe is 1/3 the power draw of 3axis table work

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uigIWptYOpQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4b11...eature=related
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    Last edited by james mcgrew; 05-10-2010 at 7:45 PM.

  6. #6
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    Richard,

    I am also a CarveWright user, digitalwoodshop.

    I am lucky to have Guy and his many CNC Machines in my Neighborhood.

    Chris from the CarveWright Forum, my Brother and I got the Grand Tour from Guy last summer... WOW.....

    Watched the 4th axis cut and watched him scan some 3 D stuff... It was Fantastic.... He has mastered many methods of doing 3D....

    I am lucky to have him in my backyard.... Too bad you are not closer....

    AL
    1 Laser, 4 CarveWrights, Star 912 Rotary, CLTT, Sublimation, FC7000 Vinyl, 911 Signs, Street Signs, Tourist Products and more.
    Home of the Fire Department "Epoxy Dome Accountability Tag and Accountability Boards".

  7. #7
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    Wow. You guys are fantastic. Very impressive demonstrations. I can't get over the enthusiasm on this board. It's very infectious.

    I'm slowly learning about cnc and have been reading this board for a while with interest. I've been a bit disappointed with the Carvewright mostly due to the fact that it's something of a closed system and I can't really dig into how it works at the programming level.

    At any rate, just for fun, thought I would post a picture of the machine I drive almost every day (hint - no G-code involved). Anyone know what this is? Better make sure you cnc guys don't get a hold of one or I will be out of a job quick.

    Thanks again.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Link View Post
    Wow. You guys are fantastic. Very impressive demonstrations. I can't get over the enthusiasm on this board. It's very infectious.

    At any rate, just for fun, thought I would post a picture of the machine I drive almost every day (hint - no G-code involved). Anyone know what this is? Better make sure you cnc guys don't get a hold of one or I will be out of a job quick.

    Thanks again.
    Looks like something that would carve away at a person while under general Anastasia
    Hardware - Shopbot PRSstandard 48x96 with PC router.
    Software - Aspire 2.5, Partworks, Cut 3D, Photo V-Carve
    Open Source/Free - Inkscape, Open Office.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Schwartz View Post
    Looks like something that would carve away at a person while under general Anastasia
    Excellent. We just need to add that 4th axis so we can flip the person midway and avoid re-prepping.

  10. #10

  11. #11
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    Richard,

    Basically you have to understand when to use 4th axis for complex carvings and when to use rotational commands and simple straight forward cuttng techniques. This comes with experience and is not had overnight. Wrapping software will do what you want however, as was pointed out, the Corbel video is nothing more then 3 axis programming with 4 rotational commands put into the file manually with a text editor.

    CNC is just one more tool in a long list of tools that woodworkers now have access to because of lower prices and better computer power and user interface.

    I will help you however I can as will other people here at The Creek.

    Guy
    Thinking outside the box is one thing, being able to accomplish what you think of, is another.

    Software Rhino 3.0 & 4.0, Corel 12, Adobe Photoshop & Illustrator, Parts Wizard, Visual Mill 5.0 & 6.0, Rhino CAM/Art, Claytools, Microsoft Word, Notepad.
    Access to Hardware CAMaster 510 ATC w/4th Axis 8' Lathe, Kitako 10 Spindle CNC 4th Axis Carving Machine, Polhemus FastScan and LDI Surveyor 3500 Laser Scanners, Sensable Haptics.

  12. #12
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    Out of curiosity, how does the Stinger's lathe mount? Does it go on the side, like in Jim's big machine, or does it mount on top? Is it dedicated, or does it swap in and out?

  13. #13
    What I'm trying to "wrap" my head around is whether we can use our 4th axis (CAMaster Recoil) to mill objects which are not primarily cylindrical.

    For example, can the X and Y mill on four or some other number of "flatish" faces on the A axis? How is this done? RhinoCam? 4th axis or 5th axis?

    We need a Guy.

    -kg

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Clara View Post
    Out of curiosity, how does the Stinger's lathe mount? Does it go on the side, like in Jim's big machine, or does it mount on top? Is it dedicated, or does it swap in and out?
    My understanding is that it mounts on the side, similar to what you see in the Cobra machines. It is dedicated and doesn't come off and on in normal use.

  15. #15
    my lathe is bolted on and can be removed, i al sure the stinger is removable when not needed, it bolts on the side.

    kevin, i will have more on the rotary soon, but basically yes is the answer.

    jim

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