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Thread: Handplane backlash (Stanley Baileys)

  1. #1
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    Handplane backlash (Stanley Baileys)

    Is there any way to reduce the backlash on the depth adjustment of a Stanley Bailey plane?

    The depth knob drives a pin that extends through the blade into a slot in the cap iron. When 'switching directions', the knob spins until it contacts the opposite side of that slot. That's (I believe) the cause for the backlash.

    Has anyone found a way to mitigate this? Wrapping the pin? Adding a bead of epoxy to the pin to thicken it? Inserting a wedge?

    This is not such an issue on my jack or larger planes, but on my #3, I find I need to fiddle to get it just perfect. (Love that #3, btw!!! What control!!!)

  2. #2
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    Interesting thought. I guess you could braise up the hole in the chipbreaker and cut a smaller one. But as long as you always take up the slack it's not really an issue. If you are increasing the depth of cut no issue and if decreasing just spin the knob toward increasing it till the slack is removed and you hit resistance. But you probably knew that!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Patel View Post
    Is there any way to reduce the backlash on the depth adjustment of a Stanley Bailey plane?

    The depth knob drives a pin that extends through the blade into a slot in the cap iron. When 'switching directions', the knob spins until it contacts the opposite side of that slot. That's (I believe) the cause for the backlash.

    Has anyone found a way to mitigate this? Wrapping the pin? Adding a bead of epoxy to the pin to thicken it? Inserting a wedge?

    This is not such an issue on my jack or larger planes, but on my #3, I find I need to fiddle to get it just perfect. (Love that #3, btw!!! What control!!!)
    There are three places to look to trouble shoot the problem here. The engagement of the yoke's pawl in the cap iron, the space between the yoke and the brass adjuster and play between the yoke and the pivot pin.

    There needs to be a bit of space for movement in all of these places or things could bind.

    When you say you "need to fiddle to get it just perfect," it leads to wondering what the nature of the "fiddling" or what is meant by "perfect."

    If the adjustment is unpredictable or erratic, then there is likely a problem needing correction.

    Most of the time, what Joel described is enough to get most folks to the cut wanted from a plane.

    If what is happening to you is less or more movement than expected or unpredictable movement for the amount of adjustment, then you may have another problem that needs to be addressed.

    BTW, do not try to bend an early style yoke to take up the slack between the brass and the yoke. They are made of cast iron and will not bend, they will break. DAMHIKT

    Check the pawl on the yoke for a dent or valley where it meets the cap iron. This could cause adjustment problems. Also check the cap iron. A burr in this area could cause adjustment problems. The notch in the cap iron could be deformed for any number of reasons.

    Only a little of my time has been given to thinking about backlash when adjusting planes after finding out about the yokes being cast iron. Perfection is nice, just not achievable in all things, especially Bailey style depth adjusters.

    A drop of oil in the right places can work wonders.

    The bedding of the blade can also have an effect on the smoothness of adjustment. Make sure there is no rust or burrs on the blade or frog.

    Hope this helps, let us know what you find.

    Maybe another page to the fettling thread should be added.

    jim
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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    Thanks for these replies! That's a lot of info, Sensei, er, I mean, Jim!

    I have a Veritas BU Smoother that is in a different league and perfect and easy to adjust, blah blah blah, but I still love the feel of some of my Stanleys and reach for them often.

    The backlash is not so much a problem as an inconvenience.

    I've fiddled with enough Baileys that I'm pretty sure my 'users' are in good shape. However, I notice ALL of them have a little backlash. Just trying to reduce that minor inconvience's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Patel View Post
    I have a Veritas BU Smoother that is in a different league and perfect and easy to adjust, blah blah blah, but I still love the feel of some of my Stanleys and reach for them often.
    The Norris style adjuster is a more accurate mechanism when tight tolerances can be adhered to during manufacture. The thread count on the adjustment screw can make it even more accurate.

    The Bailey adjuster is a good example of easy assembly, mass production design. Loose tolerances and interchangeable parts across a wide line of planes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Patel View Post
    I've fiddled with enough Baileys that I'm pretty sure my 'users' are in good shape. However, I notice ALL of them have a little backlash. Just trying to reduce that minor inconvience's all.
    My best plane for backlash is still more than a full turn of the adjuster. One of my planes is about three revolutions to reverse engagement. It is one of those things that just isn't allowed to get to me.

    There have been thoughts of ways to thicken the pawl at the cap iron or to put a washer on the adjuster to close up that space. Nothing has been done as of yet, it just isn't a priority.

    jim
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #6
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    It's not a priority for me, either - but tuning and optimizing these babies is becoming an obsession! Get me to the doctor!!! I didn't realize one could become obsessed with such details!

    My wife found me polishing my #4 knob to a glossy shine in bed last night.

  7. #7
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    I've always wanted to try the proper size of one of these:
    http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/3222/=42pj0v
    to see if the gap in the adjuster to the yoke could be closed up.
    Measure your adjuster inner diameter and see if one of these spiral retainers could be wound over the knob. They are very smooth on the flat surface so they will fit into grooves in piston pins to retain the pistons as well as other shaft retention duties. They could be stacked too if one wasn't thick enough.
    JR

  8. #8
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    #4

    polishing your "#4 knob" as opposed to another?!?!

    "in bed" and in front of the Mrs. Nonetheless!



    back to the subject.

    I mean really, i'm not much for my #3 knob. i do prefer the #4.

    enough already.

    the space between the pawl and the edges of the cutout hole in the blade are the main culprit. if you can come up with a way to thicken the pawl by a few thousandths on each side, your problem will be closer to solved. otherwise, reduce the space in the adjustment cutout hole of the blade.

    both of these options are only useable up to a point that will not remove the backlash completely.

    if you really want to get technical, you will have to thicken the pawl and contour the contacting edges of the cutout hole so that they stay in contact with the pawl and can move through all levels of adjustment. a little too much work for a plane that is already in use. however, if youre designing a plane, this might be something to design into the features.

    side note: you will never get rid of backlash even if designed for. (unless binding is part of the plan) as a matter of fact, you will design to incorporate backlash in order to compensate for thermal characteristics of expansion and contraction of the materials involved.

    cheers,

    dan
    Building my own Legos!

  9. just a thought, how about (re:designing) a ball and socket, er partial socket?

  10. #10
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    working with washers

    Saw a slightly oversized brass washer in half. Remove the yoke adjustment knob from the plane. File/sand the washer until you have the fit you want between the yolk and the adjustment knob. Carefully flux and solder the washer halves together on the yoke adjustment knob. Put it all back together and file/sand to tweak the fit.
    Gentleman Jim

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Holman View Post
    Saw a slightly oversized brass washer in half. Remove the yoke adjustment knob from the plane. File/sand the washer until you have the fit you want between the yolk and the adjustment knob. Carefully flux and solder the washer halves together on the yoke adjustment knob. Put it all back together and file/sand to tweak the fit.
    Jim points out correctly another source of the backlash -- the U shaped piece that engages the adjuster knob. There is of course as the OP pointed out the size of the slot in the chip breaker. So to really fix this both would have to be addressed. It would be interesting to try to see if the knob was the major culprit or not.

  12. #12
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    Use the #3 to get fully used to how it works. You'll find subconciously you make you're own accomondations to the backlash issue, such as advancing the blade into the cut and backing off a tad so that you plane with the blade assembly seated against the front of the pawl.

    The issue is working wood, and you will no doubt start using other planes and every plane has it's own idiosyncrasies. The design of these adjusters--both Bailey and Norris-type have been around longer than a decade. I would just make sure the plane you are working with is a model that is a better type--for example, with the Stanley Bailey, make sure the engagement pawl is cast and not two pieces of stamping.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Holman View Post
    Saw a slightly oversized brass washer in half. Remove the yoke adjustment knob from the plane. File/sand the washer until you have the fit you want between the yolk and the adjustment knob. Carefully flux and solder the washer halves together on the yoke adjustment knob. Put it all back together and file/sand to tweak the fit.
    this is what would fix my baileys up. my No's 3 & 5 take two turns just to engage the yolk in the opposite direction, then another half turn or so to get the pin moving the other way. my No 7 has about half that much play. the 9-1/2 has about 1-1/2 turns play, and my No 6, which is the least used and ugliest of the bunch (i love it but it's only job is super coarse material removal) has the least slack of the group.
    leads me to wonder.... i use the 3 & 5 at least twice as often as the rest if not more. assuming that had been the case their whole life, and assuming the more back and forth adjusting they get the more slack they will develop, it would be interesting to know what they felt like when new and if things were any less sloppy. We all love our old users but tend to give a knowing roll of the eyes at stanley's tolerances, however, we are looking at 100 year old tools in some cases! Surely that long a life of use could account for an extra rotation or two of play...
    In use, none of this bothers me, I have a good feel for where the iron is and never have a problem setting things just right. learning each tools idiosyncrasies is part of the fun.

  14. #14
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    I think I am doing well, the backlash that I thought was a lot is nowhere neat 2 to 3 turns, so after reading this I am a happy neander.
    Cheers Ron.

  15. #15
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    The size of the slot is easily addressed. Cut very thin sheet steel, .001 works well, into hole sized strips and insert them into each side of the hole bending them back on both sides so they stay in position. I use this method frequently in clock repair and it adapts well to various crafts where you need to take up some slack...
    Gentleman Jim

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