Industrial Blade Company replacement blades from Pinnacle

[Ian Coop]

Evening, just noticed an ad in FWW. A company called Industrial Blade Company that will begin selling replacement blades for amongst other manufacturers Veritas Tools and Lie Nielsen.

I looked up the company and it is located in Toronto, Ontario. The web site leads one to believe that they are already the manufacturer for the A2 and O1 blades that Lee Valley supplies with their planes. I don't know if they supply the blades for Lie Niesen products.

Actually, I can't be certain if they indeed they manufacture the blades for Lee Valley - the pictures showing A2 plane blades certainly look familiar for those of us who have Veritas tools.

I'm curious that if this company does manufacture the blades for Lee Valley and/or Lie Nielsen, why they would supply replacement blades through pinnacle tools, which I thought was a brand name associated with Woodcraft in the states.

I know Rob Lee checks out this forum on occasion and perhaps he might shed some light on my observation.

Personally, I would rather purchase replacement blades from the company that manufactured the planes i.e., Lee Valley, in order to offset the R & D the company puts into their products and to encourage continued efforts to develop and market new planes, shopeshaves and the like.

Perhaps this isn't a really gripping topic for most, however, I thought it a strange coincidence. Thanks for your thoughts.

Ian Cooper

[Richard Magbanua]

I noticed an add about those blades recently, too. Not sure about any company info, but I checked the price on Woodcraft and a replacement for my LN LA jack is $40.99 vs $40.00 from Lie-Nielsen. Now why would I, or anyone else, choose to purchase a replacement blade with "IBC" on it instead of one with "Lie-Nielsen" for about the same price?

[Joel Goodman]

LN makes their own plane irons in Maine. As a side note they are now offering 01 steel as an option for some sizes. Not sure who makes the LV irons.

[Ian Coop]

Yes, you are right, I checked the prices and they are very similar. Lie Nielsen indicates their blades are made in the U.S.

I wonder if the blades are lapped flat as they are when purchased through Lie Nielsen or Lee Valley - that is a big time saver, especially with A2 steel.

I can understand a company wanting to expand and offer replacement blades for the woodworking market. I just can't understand why Woodcraft, who carries Lie Nielsen products and I suppose Lie Nielsen replacement blades, offer another brand as well.

Ian

[Tony Zaffuto]

One of the recent Woodcraft catalogs I recieved recently, had the blades in it. I did not infer in any way that this company makes the blades for LV or LN, but that it was an alternative.

Where the cost advantage comes into play, will be those frequent times, that Woodcraft offers 10% and free shipping. But, you also have to need a blade and if you are a hobbyist such as I, that's years in the future.

As a supplier of replacement blades for vintage Stanley and Sargent planes, that is a different matter.

T.

[Richard Magbanua]

I may have missed it, but I don't see LN blades offered on the Woodcraft website anymore. Just Hock and Pinnacle.

Yes, you are right, I checked the prices and they are very similar. Lie Nielsen indicates their blades are made in the U.S.

I wonder if the blades are lapped flat as they are when purchased through Lie Nielsen or Lee Valley - that is a big time saver, especially with A2 steel.

I can understand a company wanting to expand and offer replacement blades for the woodworking market. I just can't understand why Woodcraft, who carries Lie Nielsen products and I suppose Lie Nielsen replacement blades, offer another brand as well.

Ian

[Dave Beauchesne]

I was at the Vancouver Wood Show two weeks ago and heard some interesting things - I won't divulge the source, but is a solid as they come.

IBC has made plane blades for LV from nearly day one, but it was hinted that there may be change in the works from that regard - I have a couple of LV planes and the A2 blades are great. I wish they were available in Cryo - I asked why LV didn't use A2 Cryo - seems they aren't sold on it, even though IBC offers it. By the way, we were able to test drive a LN # 5 with an IBC Cryo blade - .0007 '' shavings from a 1.750 inch wide piece of Eastern Maple were like cutting butter and easily achieved.

Seems as though Woodcraft is getting set up to offer a Stanley ' tune up kit ' from, you guessed it - IBC , to use on older, serviceable planes ( not the later ' stuff ' ) - rationale, with a modern iron / chipbreaker and tune up, these planes can be very serviceable at less $$ than LN, LV etc. There was a couple opinions offered why Woodcraft is going this way when they are a LN Dealer, but off the record.

As for Cryo, I specifically asked the question - why doesn't LV offer Cryo, while LN does ( I have LN chisels and a couple A2 Cryo planes and realllllly love'em !! ) and
IS CRYO REALLY A GOOD THING ???

The answer was this - one of the shaving blade companies ( Gillette if I recall ) Cryo treats all their tooling in the manufacturing plant, but absolutely refuses to Cryo treat any blades offered to customers. Go figure. Maybe LV isn't sold on Cryo; though from a premium plane supplier perspective, I don't see it myself - better product, less sharpening = happier customer - maybe they don't want to be seen jumping on the band wagon, though when LN and Ron Hock offer Cryo, there has to be something to it.

This is all very interesting and the squabbling / competition between premium plane makers, chisel makers, handsaws etc., will be decided by us, the end users - hopefully the companies that forged ahead and brought back premium tools to us can continue to be profitable and stick around - they resurrected hand tools, we embraced it because they work really well, and woodworking is a more pleasurable thing to do because of it.

JMHO - Dave Beauchesne

[Ron Hock]

Dave asks: IS CRYO REALLY A GOOD THING ??? Good question.

Cryogenic treatment can, in many cases, "finish the quench". At a steel's critical temperature (O1 is 1475F, A2 is 1775F) the iron crystal structure changes from ferrite to austenite. The steel is then quenched (rapidly cooled) to freeze the austenite into martensite, the hard, wear resistant structure we want for edge tools. Sometimes with air-hardening steels not all of the austenite converts to martensite during the quench. This retained austenite contributes nothing to a cutting edge. Cryogenic treatment is used to finally convert the retained austenite to martensite letting us realize the full potential of the steel. Deep cryo treatment (-320F) also encourages the growth of very fine "eta-carbides" -- hard, wear resistant particles that also help with edge retention.

We cryo treat all of our A2 blades to be certain you're getting all there is to get from the steel (and I like the eta-carbide part.) We don't cryo treat our O1 blades because O1 is much less likely to retain austenite after its oil quench, and our own testing has supported this.

Cryogenic treatment can be done to many things with seemingly fantastical results. There are claims of golf balls flying farther, pantyhose resisting runs, brass instruments and guitar strings sounding "better", and I doubt you'll find too many competitive target shooters or auto/motorcycle racers who don't use cryo treated gun barrels and engine parts.

[Mike Brady]

Its very possible that these blades from IBC are replacing the Lie-Nielsen ones at WC. They want to have blades to sell to their customers who have purchased LN planes from them in the past. Our nearest WC store hasn't carried LN irons for quite a while, actually; even though there are a few LN planes still on the shelf. Hmmm.....

[Rob Lee]

(snip)

As for Cryo, I specifically asked the question - why doesn't LV offer Cryo, while LN does ( I have LN chisels and a couple A2 Cryo planes and realllllly love'em !! ) and
IS CRYO REALLY A GOOD THING ???

(snip)

Dave -

We have extensively tested Cryo-treated A2 blades, and have been unable to find any benefit to doing so - especially if your process is in control. If we thought it had any benefit - we'd do it. It's not a difficult process, and we do use cryogenic treatment elsewhere... where it does have a benefit (and no, I can't discuss how/where/what we use it for).

Cryo treatment can be a good thing - but it can also be an unnecessary cost, and does not universally improve every material it's applied to.

Cheers -

Rob

[David Gendron]

I'm glad to know that Hock's O1 is not, I'm realy happy with the one I have, no need for something toughter, because it's toughter to sharpen! For the first planes I bought new, I went with A2 but still regrat it, Ilike O1 way better!
Just my 2 cents

[Michael Schwartz]

Last I heard LN is planning on offering O1 chisels, and a 01 blades for some of there planes, if you are a fan of O1 steel.

Just out of nostalgia I wouldn't consider putting anything but a LN iron in any of my LN planes.

Of course with my veritas planes same thing applies.

[Mike Brady]

So I guess you are giving the "cold shoulder" to cryo? Sorry. Just had to say it. Interesting difference of opinion though. We do appreciate you and Ron giving us your views first hand. Got to respect that.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Mike Brady:

I echo your note - good to see Ron and Rob wade in to the fray -

Again, they and others have ' brought back ' a useable hand tool - kudos and thanks for a first hand comment from each of you. All I know is I WILL continue to patronize the PREMIUM tools ( of which LV and Ron Hock fit the category ) side of woodworking; I am fortunate that I have a decent job that allows some discretionary spending, thus, ( along with a great spouse ) I can splurge and buy the best.

Dave Beauchesne

[glenn bradley]

I just can't understand why Woodcraft, who carries Lie Nielsen products and I suppose Lie Nielsen replacement blades, offer another brand as well.

Ian

Let's hope they are not doing as some retailers have of late. Bring in a similar priced product of questionable quality that has a better profit margin; if it sells then the better quality, less profitable line is dropped. As a (probably poor) example, my Lowe's dropped Freud drills and now carries some Chinese bits with the Porter Cable packaging wrapped around them. I now buy my Freud online and somewhere someone at Lowe's may or may not notice. I am all for a businessman making a living but, having some long term interest in keeping loyal customers should be important, no?

Wow, where did that come from? Rant over. I better have a cup of Joe and cheer up .