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Thread: Water based stain over oil based stain

  1. #1
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    Water based stain over oil based stain

    I know this question must have been asked before but I couldn't find it in my search.

    I built an oak headboard for my son about 3 yrs ago using Minwax Polyshades, an oil based stain and polyurethane product. Now my son wants the headboard stained darker. The headboard has a mission style design and has many 3/4" square spindles with 3/4" space in between spindles. So re-staining it by hand will be very difficult. I plan to spray with a water based stain because it will be easier and the stain will dry faster.

    My question is: is it advisable to spray a water based stain over an oil based stain? What kind of prep work I need to prepare the headboard to accept the water based stain? What brand or type of water based stain is recommended for spraying. Any help will be appreciated.

  2. #2
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    Polyshades isn't a stain in any way. It's a tinted varnish. And since the wood is sealed, there is no wood to "stain". As to the water based/borne/soluble stain/dye, it's not going to do a very good job over an oil-based product. You may be better served by using a commercial spray toner (check for compatibility with your existing finish--you can't use something lacquer based over that varnish) or some other tinted varnish product. I will say this...you're thinking in the right direction by considering spraying for this job and not just because of all the nooks and crannies, but because getting an even coat of a tinted product like that is very hard with hand-application.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  3. #3
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    Jim, thanks for your help and suggestion. I am kind of a novice when it comes to finishing. Can you steer me to specific brand of toning or tinted vanish that you know may be compatible with the Polyshades? The current color on the headboard is pecan and I need to get it to walnut color.

  4. #4
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    Polyshades.

    You will need to lightly sand the entire project before you apply the Polyshades or it will have adhesion problems.

    Hey Jim, in my experience lacquer based toners average 50/50 on blistering a varnish finish a bit higher on urethane varnish finishes.
    Scott

    Finishing is an 'Art & a Science'. Actually, it is a process. You must understand the properties and tendencies of the finish you are using. You must know the proper steps and techniques, then you must execute them properly.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Scott Holmes View Post
    Hey Jim, in my experience lacquer based toners average 50/50 on blistering a varnish finish a bit higher on urethane varnish finishes.
    Exactly the reason for my caution...lacquer shouldn't be put over most other finishes. A barrier coat of de-waxed shellac "may" increase the chance of success, but there are no guarantees.

    Simon, I'm sorry, but I'm not knowledgeable about specific toner products.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  6. #6
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    Simon,

    90% of premixed toners are lacquer based. See my note above to Jim 50/50 is risky in my book. Since it's poly on the bed then the odds get worse.

    You have two choices;

    1. Poly shades

    2 Shellac based toner that you can make yourself. Shellac and Transtint dye to get the color you want.

    Toners are sprayed 99% of the time to control coverage and to get an even coat.
    Scott

    Finishing is an 'Art & a Science'. Actually, it is a process. You must understand the properties and tendencies of the finish you are using. You must know the proper steps and techniques, then you must execute them properly.

  7. #7
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    Scott, Thanks for the suggestion. I am leaning toward making the shellac toner as Polyshades may be hard to spray and take too long to dry. I do have some Mixol dyes. Do you they will mix with shellac? Other than sanding the surface, any other steps I need to take before spray on the shellac toner?

    Thanks again!

  8. #8
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    Scott, one more question. Shellac is not recommended to be used as a sealer under polyurethane. Do you think a shellac toner can be used over polyurethane which is what Polyshades is?

  9. #9
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    Mixol dyes/pigments are usually universal so the answer to the question about using them in shellac is most likely, YES it's OK. Check the product you have to make sure. Shellac is desolved in denatured alcohol (DNA).

    Yes there are other steps before spraying the toner. Toners by definition are added between coat of finish not to bare wood. I usually use super blond de-waxed shellac as the sealer coats, they dry very fast. You can also use premixed lacquer based toners between coat of shellac.

    Boy did you set yourself up for this one....

    DON'T use POLY. The reason the manf. says don't use shellac is because poly has a nasty hait of not sticking to itself or anything else very well. That's why the say sand between coats ... so the poly will stick. This is not a problem with de-waxed shellac and poly; not a problem for other non-poly varnishes at all.

    Do yourself a favaor and try a non-poly varnish and you will greatly expand your finishing options. If you are looking for an nice satin finish try Waterlox Satin or Sherwin Williams Classic Oil Varnish in satin.
    Scott

    Finishing is an 'Art & a Science'. Actually, it is a process. You must understand the properties and tendencies of the finish you are using. You must know the proper steps and techniques, then you must execute them properly.

  10. #10
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    Scott, thanks again for the very useful information. I definitely will try something else other than poly on my next project.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Leung View Post
    Scott, one more question. Shellac is not recommended to be used as a sealer under polyurethane. Do you think a shellac toner can be used over polyurethane which is what Polyshades is?
    Yes, you can use a shellac toner OVER your polyurethane finish with no problem. You can also use de-waxed shellac UNDER a poly finish without issue.

    But I also agree with Scott...lose the poly in the future. It's a nice floor finish, but not really the best choice for furniture and other woodworking projects. You only gain a little abrasion resistance, but at the cost of potential cloudiness and adhesion problems. There are some great oil-based alkyd based and phenolic based varnishes available...but not at the home center. Go to a real paint store like Scott suggested.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #12
    I have a similar question but I am wondering if I can apply oil based polyurethane over water based polyurethane I have a big project but it's my first staining job and I don't really know what I am doing, so I try different products to improve the results. I bought oil based stain at Sherwin Williams they said it was the best and I really like the color. To finish it first I used oil based polyurethane I really liked the result, the only one thing bothered me was that it had added some yellow color, someone told me that water based Minwax Polycrylic was a better product and easier to use, so I tried it. It was easy to use but I don't like how it looks at all, oil based finish looks so much better. So I went back to Sherwin Williams and they suggested Helmsman Spar Urethane, I tried it it looks better than Polycrylic it doesn't add any yellow color but it's a bit too glossy for satin finish, may be it's because it's not completely dry . So my first question is Helmsman Spar Urethane the right product for my cabinets? And can I apply it over Minwax Polycrylic to give a few doors I've already finished a nicer look?
    I really hope someone heps me, I don't want to discover some bad news when it's too late
    Last edited by Irene Newman; 11-29-2009 at 11:38 PM.

  13. #13
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    No Spar varnish is not a good choice for cabinets.

    Spar varnish is an EXTERIOR product it is LESS water proof and LESS water vapor proof. Whomever told you to use the spar... don't get anymore advise from them.

    Water-borne is a bit easier to use and clean up but it is not as durable as the oil based finishes.

    There are other varnishes (poly is a type of varnish) that don't add yellow or darken with age. Specifically alkyd resin/soya oil varnishes.

    I'll name a few for you... Pratt & Lambert #38, Sherwin Williams Clasic Oil Varnish (at SW paint stores not the big box stores). Cabot #8000 series varnish (some big box stores carry it, but not all, or even most of them).
    Scott

    Finishing is an 'Art & a Science'. Actually, it is a process. You must understand the properties and tendencies of the finish you are using. You must know the proper steps and techniques, then you must execute them properly.

  14. #14
    Scott, thank you for the fast reply. I just don't get why it's less water proof, I would think exterior finish should be more waterproof than interior finish I went to Sherwin Williams and returned Spar Urethane, they gave me a free can of Minwax fast-drying Polyurethane, they said it was very durable and didn't add too much yellow. What do you think about this product?
    I have had a very bad luck with incompetent people working at the stores. At first some guy at Home Depot sold me Polyshades (Bombay Mahogany), it was a nightmare, I spent a week trying to figure out what I was doing wrong, I almost gave up on my project when I read on this forum that the best place for Polyshades was a garbage can I had to sand everything and start all over again.

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