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Thread: 1 micron bags or canister and fittings

  1. #1

    1 micron bags or canister and fittings

    Hi all,

    I just got the HF dust collector since I had a coupon for $139. It's in the last two issues of Wood magazine and couldn't pass it up.
    Because the bags are 5 micron I don't want to start using it until I have something better. I've looked at the canisters and like the Grizzly because of the paddles but man those prices!
    I am just a hobbyist and won't spend entire weekends in the shop but do more occasional work. Do I really need a canister or can I get by with a 1 micron bag? If so which would you recommend?

    If I end up spending more time in the shop I might consider removing the top bag and venting the unit to the outside.

    My woodshop is the half part of a two and a half car garage. I plan on having the dc unit sit in the corner and use one 4" hose to go to the tool I will be using. I know this might be cumbersome but I have to start somewhere and figure out how I want the final design.

    The only 4" outlets I have are on my table saw and planer. The router table and band saw have a 2 1/2" outlet. The jointer has nothing so I need something for that.

    Is there a fitting that hooks up to an old craftsman 6" jointer or should I just build one myself?

    I've compared prices for hoses, ABS blast gates and fittings at Woodcraft and HF and the latter is much cheaper. Are those decent or should I just go to Woodcraft and spend a bit more?

  2. #2
    Look no further than the following site: http://www.wynnenv.com/35A_series_cartridge_kit.htm

    There are now 3 options (previously only 2). The choice is up to you, as they are all fantastic filters. I went with the spun-bond filter as it's washable. This is the best money you can spend for your DC improvements.
    Maurice

  3. Garage heated or unheated?

    My two cents for a garage, unless it's heated, vent it to the outside. Though many people vent to the outside even in heated spaces. Not like you'll be running the DC the whole time.

    A nice remote is a good idea, just turn it on and off at will...

    Are you going to add a chip separator? If not, go with a bag as you'll likely be throwing out more chips than you'd expect.

    1 micron bag vs 1 micron canister? Unless you go paper, both are washable.. One may require a good smack more often (bag) than the other due to surface area to knock the fine dust loose.

    In the end, they both filter down to 1 micron.... Unless someone thinks the bags are lying.

    That said, airflow is better through the canister filters, which effects the bottom end efficiency of the DC. But then, airflow is better through dumping it outside... Just be aware of how much it will affect people close to your home.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maurice Ungaro View Post
    Look no further than the following site: http://www.wynnenv.com/35A_series_cartridge_kit.htm

    There are now 3 options (previously only 2). The choice is up to you, as they are all fantastic filters. I went with the spun-bond filter as it's washable. This is the best money you can spend for your DC improvements.
    Depending on where you live and what the shipping cost is to you, the grizzly canister that the OP mentions can actually end up being cheaper than the poly filter from wynn. In addition, it has the "thwacking" paddle that the wynns don't have. Grizz doesn't offer a paper option however.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Watson View Post
    If I end up spending more time in the shop I might consider removing the top bag and venting the unit to the outside.
    I'm not a fan of venting outside unless you've really got some elbow room around your house (or have great air flow going up and away from the neighborhood). Where I live (in a small city) venting to the outside of my shop would be a very quick way to have angry neighbors knocking on my door asking why the hell there is sanding dust all over their car.

  6. #6
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    Charles, Let me address your issues first by saying that I have that DC, and have done some mods to it that make it work VERY well for not a ton of money...

    Because the bags are 5 micron I don't want to start using it until I have something better. I've looked at the canisters and like the Grizzly because of the paddles but man those prices!
    Very smart choice to not use the HF DC with the 5 micron bags. Those will just pump the most dangerous stuff back into the air... I wanted to mention though, I don't know the price on the Grizzly, but the things to look for are fittment, and filtering ability. Forget about the paddles. I have the Wynn 35A, and it stays almost new sort of clean with heavy use through my using a Thien separator inline before the DC, and tapping the canister down after shutting off the DC. Literally just drumming on the filter around the circumference, just a tap, like a pat on the back...

    I am just a hobbyist and won't spend entire weekends in the shop but do more occasional work. Do I really need a canister or can I get by with a 1 micron bag? If so which would you recommend?
    You CAN get by with a bag. The reason for a canister is air flow. Simply put, you can get X amount of air flow for Y amount of surface area at Z filtration level, If Z remains constant, and X is desired to be a higher value, Y must be a higher value. Short story, to get more air flow, you MUST have more surface area for a given filtration level. So a 20 sq ft filter bag will allow only 1/10 air flow of a 200 sq ft pleated filter. Okay so those numbers aren't 100% dead on, but you get the idea... Also pleated media takes a LOT longer to get plugged up versus bags...

    What it boils down to, is if you want the best air flow that this DC can offer, a cartridge filter is the only way to go, but they cost more...

    If I end up spending more time in the shop I might consider removing the top bag and venting the unit to the outside.
    This is another option, and one that a lot of folks are chosing...

    My woodshop is the half part of a two and a half car garage. I plan on having the dc unit sit in the corner and use one 4" hose to go to the tool I will be using. I know this might be cumbersome but I have to start somewhere and figure out how I want the final design.
    Look at the Rockler Dust Right hose then. I have regular 4" hose, and I HATE having it all over the place when I am not using the DC, It uncoils on its own and spills over onto other workspaces...

    The only 4" outlets I have are on my table saw and planer. The router table and band saw have a 2 1/2" outlet. The jointer has nothing so I need something for that.
    I am not familiar with your specific router table, and band saw, but I would suggest up sizing your dust ports. I have not done so yet on my router table, but have on the band saw, and the results are night and day. Yes I did have a 2.5" reducer, NOT WORTH THE EFFORT... But with the 4" it catches everything off the saw...

    Is there a fitting that hooks up to an old craftsman 6" jointer or should I just build one myself?
    Sears sold a LOT of different 6" jointers, made by a LOT of different companies over the years. You might need to be a bit more specific in that question... But generally speaking, most jointers simply have dust chutes that spill the shavings onto the floor. Measure the opening, and look for a universal dust port to fit over the opening, and be prepared to either drill the port's plastic flange, or the jointer's sheet metal to make them mate up.

    I've compared prices for hoses, ABS blast gates and fittings at Woodcraft and HF and the latter is much cheaper. Are those decent or should I just go to Woodcraft and spend a bit more?
    If you are going machine to machine, not using a multi drop network, you have no need for blast gates. Again I suggest the Rockler Dust Right hose.

    I would suggest that you google "Thien Cyclone" and look into a Thien baffle in the inlet ring. This will help you keep the filter clean, and flowing freely.
    Trying to follow the example of the master...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Reet View Post
    Depending on where you live and what the shipping cost is to you, the grizzly canister that the OP mentions can actually end up being cheaper than the poly filter from wynn. In addition, it has the "thwacking" paddle that the wynns don't have. Grizz doesn't offer a paper option however.
    True, but aren't the Grizzly canisters 2 micron?
    Trying to follow the example of the master...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Hostetler View Post
    True, but aren't the Grizzly canisters 2 micron?
    There is some confusion about that due to a review on the amazon page for the grizzly canisters. The guy writing the review says:

    I wish it would have been 1 micron cut rather than 2 micron, but it seems to work well enough and is better than the 30 micron bags that came with the HF unit.
    But the Grizzly page for the canister doesn't have any specs on it to prove or refute that guy's statement. However, if you look at the product page on grizzly for the G0548 or the G0562 (which the canister is listed as being a replacement part for) on grizzly's site, it says:

    Allows filtering of the air to 1 micron with minimal loss of performance
    It doesn't seem logical that Grizzly would sell a replacement part with worse specs than the original part. But the real answer is to go into (or call) Grizzly and double check with them. I actually have to stop by there today and pick up something, so I will ask the guys what the deal is.

  9. #9
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    I just called wynn to ask some questions on their filters and was able to talk with Mr Wynn. After to talking to him and the responses i got I will be ordering a wynn filter today to replace my existing jet cannister. I am going to go with the nano even though Mr wynn said it would be overkill but I want as much dust out of the air as i possibly can and for a few extra bucks its worth it. He said if you do more MDF type stuff to use the spun bond because of cleanability, the others just spray out with compressed air. He also said the nano is 2 steps below a hepa filter rating( the nano is a MERV 15)

    Bruce

  10. Good info! Thanks guys!

    My garage is not heated so venting to the outside would not pose a problem in that regard. Every house in my suburb sits on 1 acre so we do have some space inbetween homes but I might forget about this option alltogether. We have our windows open a lot and I wouldn't want to blow all this dust back into the house!

    I really don't want to spend $200 on a canister but if it's that much better than a bag and means I never have to do anything to it but give it a few taps then I guess that's the way to go.

    With shipping the poly Wynn canister would come to $172, the nano for $187 and the Grizzly to $196.65. If the paddles are not needed than the Grizzly can be removed from the list. And since trapping 0.5 microns is better than 1, logic dictates I should fork over the extra $15 over the poly and get the nano Wynn.... do these things ever go on sale? I can't believe the filter costs more than the whole dc unit : )

    My band saw is also from HF, it's the 14" model and has a 2.5" dust port under the table, angled down and away from the blade. It shouldn't be too hard to remove it and have a 4" in it's place.

    The router table is a bench dog pro max table saw extension. It has the 28" pro fence with clear platic 2.5" dust port. I don't know if they make bolt on 4" ports but I'll look around.
    The plan was to get a short piece of 2.5" hose and have it go from the router port down to the table saw stand so I can attach it there and top it with a 2.5" to 4" reducer. The 2.5" hose would have plenty slack so to move the fence around but there would be no drag on it from the 4" hose because the reducer would be secured to the stand. Makes sense?

    If this is not efficient than I'll have to find a way to have it all be 4"

    The jointer is model 113.206931. Not the best in the world I know, but it is in perfect condition and I only paid $40 for it so it's staying! Jointers scare me though, I need to watch more safety videos.

    What's the difference between the Thien baffle, a pre seperator and a neutral vane? I know I need one or all of these : )

    The remote switch is on the shopping list but not a priority just yet.

    EDIT: I wonder if this would be strong enough for the HF dc unit? I like the idea of having the dc kick in whenever I startup a power tool.

    http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/0/2...um-Switch.aspx
    Last edited by Charles Watson; 12-04-2009 at 11:48 AM.

  11. #11
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    IMO the Thien baffle should be required with cannister filters.

    I have a Thien baffle in a PSI "2 h.p." dust collector. They make the canister filters viable IMO. Without the baffle I was getting lots of chips & dust in the canister filter. I have the Wynn spun bond filter. I slapped it and blew it out from the outside but there was still a pretty good build-up in the filter folds. So far with the Thien baffle the amount of chips in the filter is negligible. Some build the Thien filter into or on top of a garbage can and have the airflow pass thru the Thien baffle before entering the D.C. blower. The advantage to this arrangement is the chips and any possible metal do not contact the blower paddles. I don't know if there is a performance penalty or how much with the pre-separator configuration. I haven't seen anyone using the Thien baffle then venting outside but it'd be interesting to hear how that works. I have a basement shop in a townhouse development so venting outside is not an option. Plus, I just couldn't bring myself to blow conditioned air outside.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Harms View Post
    I have a Thien baffle in a PSI "2 h.p." dust collector. They make the canister filters viable IMO. Without the baffle I was getting lots of chips & dust in the canister filter...
    Amen to that. A canister w/o the baffle is much less than ideal, nearly useless in my experience. I've tried using a flapper, which is just about useless too. The ratio of sq ft of filter to cfm should be as high as possible or it creates back pressure and hinders airflow. In order to get high sq footage, the pleats are very tightly spaced and the flapper doesn't work. Open the pleat spacing and you lose sq footage and airflow. I use the paper blend Wynn filter @ 274 sq ft and a Jet 1200 DC. Really I should have 2 of the canisters stacked together but I can't afford it right now and it is giving me enough airflow as is. I have the Thien separator inside my DC inlet ring, after the blower, for compactness. It's wonderful. The filter gets cleaned about once a year now. If you're interested in the setup, search the creek and my name. I think the posts w/ pics I made are dated around Jan 2008.

    Dave

  13. #13
    Ok, I just ordered the 35A Wynn poly spun canister and picked up that switch from Woodcraft along with some other goodies like the jointer hood.
    On Saturday I assembled the HF dc unit in my cold garage. I did not install the top bag of course. I plugged the unit in so I could see if it would blow the fuse on the outlet I wanted to use and it didn't even blink so that was good news.
    I don't know if it's because there was no top bag installed but dang that thing works doesn't it! I'm used to a small shop vac and did not expect this unit to work like it does. Can't wait to start making some dust.
    The funny thing is...I still need to make that Thien seperator...without dust collection : )

    I have some plywood, 1/2 and 3/4 and I have 3/4 mdf. Should I use one of those or get something else?

  14. #14
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    You have two options with the Thien separator.

    #1. A pre separator which keeps the chunks and most but not all of the fines out of the DC entirely, allowing only a little teeny tiny bit of material to pass to the filter. This was the option I went with AFTER I did...

    #2. Baffle in the inlet ring. This keeps debris and most dust away from the filter, but still sucks everything through the DC impeller. The first nut I picked up and thought I was being shot at was enough for me to use a pre separator. It's up to you!

    Either way, I used simple 1/4" hardboard, and threaded rod, washers and nuts to put the whole thing together...

    Google Thien Cyclone, and get to Phil's forum pages. There are pretty detailed instructions on how to build the Thien cyclone lid there...

    I cann only attest to testing the suction of the machine with the bag, but not running it in actual production as I did NOT want to spew dust all over the place. But there is a NOTICEABLE difference in suction with the 5 micron bag, and the Wynn 35A setup. The Wynn flows a LOT better...

    I don't have pics up of it yet, but it is REAL easy to set up a 4" port to pick up off of the lower blade guide. I did it with a simple nipple of 4" S&D, and a chunk of 4x4 cut down, and rounded up to act as a mount block... I ran a 4" x 4" x 2.5" wye, and ran the 2.5" up to the upper blade guide. My saw is pretty much dust free when I remember to use the DC... If I took pics of the saw now you would know I sometimes forget to attach the hose!
    Trying to follow the example of the master...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Reet View Post
    It doesn't seem logical that Grizzly would sell a replacement part with worse specs than the original part. But the real answer is to go into (or call) Grizzly and double check with them. I actually have to stop by there today and pick up something, so I will ask the guys what the deal is.
    Just to follow-up:

    The guys at Grizzly said their canisters filter to 1 micron.

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