Lumbers by Region

[Allan Froehlich]

Hello Creekers!

After an extensive search for canoe lumber, I finally found a supplier of sitka spruce in Wisconsin. Unfortunately, they were charging about 18$ per board foot. I told the lady on the other end that mahogany was cheaper than that. I then tried to negotiate a better price, but to little avail.

I searched for local lumbers that might cost less, but my search is only 12 hours old and I have had little luck.

I am curious if anyone knows of region-specific lumbers for stripwood canoe and kayak building. Being a Wisconsinite, any Midwest lumbers would be preferred, but region-specific list covering the US and Canada might be the best idea (possible boatbuilding forum sticky!!!!).

[Mac McQuinn]

Try L.L. Johnson, they have stores in Charlotte & Grand Rapids, MI & Northern Indiana, I believe South Bend. Pretty good size place, 100 years in business. They supply several smaller shops. They're boat builder friendly and display their goods at "Quiet Water Symposium" in Lansing, MI every year. Sitka Spruce is going to be priced at a premium especially the aircraft grade stuff, I have some of this, 30 growth lines per inch!, beautiful stuff. Most people building strip canoes use Western Red Cedar or a blend of woods. You might find some Yellow Cedar which is pretty abundant in Michigan's Eastern U.P. & Northern lower Peninsula. Sitka is for sailing masts, etc for light, flexible strength. Little heavier than WRC. More $$

Mac

[Allan Froehlich]

What do you think about northern white cedar?

[Bob Smalser]

If you can get Northern White Cedar for strip planking and canoe framing, you are in for a treat as it is lighter and more flexible than Western Red. It's a smaller tree and generally only comes in flatsawn, however. I don't show Alaska Yellow Cedar growing anywhere near Wisconsin, except perhaps as an ornamental.

Otherwise your area has Eastern White Pine and Eastern Red Cedar for planking...Sassafras, which is heavier but suitable for both strips and frames....and framing/accent woods like Black Walnut, Black Cherry, Kentucky Coffeetree and Red Mulberry.

Those are the rot resistant woods. In lightweight spruces your Black Spruce isn't a large tree like Sitka but has similar properties and is relatively cheap. You also have Black and White Ash locally, another trim wood used in canoes.

[Allan Froehlich]

Do you think I should still place a strong emphasis on rot resistance despite the use of fiberglass and epoxy?

Also, I keep searching the internet for Wisconsin lumber sources but I keep coming up short. Any suggestions for sources of these lumbers within 150 miles of Milwaukee?

[Bob Smalser]

Do you think I should still place a strong emphasis on rot resistance despite the use of fiberglass and epoxy?

Depends.

Will you glass it both inside and out? Store it outdoors? Use it in rocky rivers and on gravel beaches? Neglect its maintenance once the shine wears off?

Fabric and epoxy applied inside and out generally prevents the wood from reaching the 20% MC threshold required for rot, and you can use almost any wood. But abrasions must be repaired immediately. And some white woods are prone to mold spotting beneath the glass.

For every rot-prone spruce, okoume and ash, there is a Yellow Cedar, Red Cedar and Sassafras to do the same job, often at a similar price. Why not have your cake and eat it, too?

[Allan Froehlich]

Depends.

Will you glass it both inside and out? Store it outdoors? Use it in rocky rivers and on gravel beaches? Neglect its maintenance once the shine wears off?

Fabric and epoxy applied inside and out generally prevents the wood from reaching the 20% MC threshold required for rot, and you can use almost any wood. But abrasions must be repaired immediately. And some white woods are prone to mold spotting beneath the glass.

For every rot-prone spruce, okoume and ash, there is a Yellow Cedar, Red Cedar and Sassafras to do the same job, often at a similar price. Why not have your cake and eat it, too?

Any boat I plan on building will be glassed inside and out.

What do you think about sealing the wood prior to glassing? The wood strips are so thin that the wood could be sealed all the way through.

Despite what I stated above, rot resistance will be a key attribute of the lumber I select.

I think I just found a yellow cedar distributor in the UP.

[Bob Smalser]

What do you think about sealing the wood prior to glassing? The wood strips are so thin that the wood could be sealed all the way through.

Actually, deep epoxy penetration is probably more effective to prevent rot than fabric and glass, as it's more difficult to abrade through. The late Robb White and his family build successful Tulip Poplar hulls without glass, and in spite of some anecdotes otherwise, the USDA says Tulip isn't rot resistant at all.

http://www.robbwhite.com/

His technique was an epoxy pressure treatment of sorts. He'd heat the shop and hull overnight and through the next day to near a hundred degrees, then apply heated epoxy liberally and turn off the heat. Natural cooling of the wood and shop would not just prevent off-gassing, but allow the wood to absorb as much epoxy as physically possible. As one of Tulip's assets is its strength across the grain and resistance to splitting, the planking could be kept relatively thin and epoxy penetration from both sides was deep, adding strength and hardness as well as resistance to absorbing moisture.

I do something similar but different with dry or old plywood that also works very well, as I have no way to heat a shop containing medium to large boats. I saturate the plywood with CPES and instead of waiting several days for the CPES to cure per the instructions, hotcoat it immediately with the 2-part epoxy primer I buy as naval shipyard surplus. The CPES penetrates deeply and bonds chemically to the tough epoxy primer, and the result after evaluating its performance in collisions is that it's like adding an armored lam to the plywood.

[Allan Froehlich]

That is interesting, but I want to seal the wood with a clear sealer so that I can still see the grain.

[Bob Smalser]

Robb White's hulls are often varnished.

And this yoke is covered with epoxy, glass fabric and spar varnish....and you can still see the grain.

[Mac McQuinn]

Most epoxy suppliers offer a product for Strip Canoe building which is more transparent than normal to enable the grain to show through. I've use the Gougeon Brothers West System component (207) and it works very well for this. Make sure you add a good varnish to the surface as epoxy alone does not prevent against UV.

Mac

[Allan Froehlich]

How deep do you think the System West epoxy penetrates?

[Bob Smalser]

How deep do you think the System West epoxy penetrates?

As I said above, that depends on how you do it. Otherwise not very deep at all. Neither do most other sealers.

Take some scraps of your wood, try different techniques, then cut them in half and see how deep they penetrate.

[Mac McQuinn]

My experience is it won't penetrate any further than 1st glue line in Plywood at best.

Mac

[Allan Froehlich]

Any thoughts on an automotive urethane paint with UV resistant properties? What if this is sprayed over the fiberglass and then waxed?