NEW - Sweet Heart Plane, disappointing

[John Coloccia]

I understand the whole Walmart thing. People just want to be able to provide the best for their families, and cheap goods does that. Not everyone appreciates fine furniture/cookware/clothes/etc. For example, I have absolutely no appreciation of a fine shower curtain. My wife does. She hates our industrial, mold free, $10 curtain. I like it just fine. Some people are happy with cheap furniture that holds up their TV, and they would not appreciate a finely made entertainment center.

It's the same with tools. Some people just don't appreciate a finely made tool. Others just can't afford them. My problem with the Sweethearts is they're priced way too high for the quality you get. If they were cheap, and you know they're cheap and will need a lot of work, then fine. It's so disappointing, though, to pay a good amount for a tool expecting a usable implement, and ending up with something that you could have paid much less for from a competitor.

In my opinion, LN and LV have some of the finest tools out there, priced quite competitively with what the old Stanleys cost way back when, adjusted for inflation. Back then, though, the only people who owned these kinds of tools were pros that needed them. How many of us inherited tools from our parents? I didn't. They were too expensive.

Now, a whole class of people that could never have afforded woodworking can afford it, at the expense of a bit more work in setting up their tools. That's fine, but the tool has to be priced accordingly. The Sweetheart block plane is priced at $100. The Veritas block plane is priced at $150. I can tell you that from what I saw, the Stanley should maybe be priced at around $30 or $40. It's not even in the same league as the Veritas, so much so that it's almost unfair to compare them, but the Sweetheart's price forces you to compare them.

Anyhow, this isn't a rant. I like that cheap goods are available to those that want/need them (although don't get me started on where the goods are coming from!), but shame on Stanley for pretending to be something they're not. It's just not how you would want companies to do business. Whatever additional bad reputation they get from this is well deserved, although it doesn't seem to be bothering their bottom line any.

For what it's worth, I think Groz does well as an inexpensive but usuable manufacturer. Their planes need some work, but you end up with a very usable tool with decent steal. Personally, I'd rather spend more and have something that's ready to use out of the box. My time is valuable to me, not just in a "time is money" sense, but in a "I only have so much time on this planet" sense.

[David Keller NC]

Hmm - Well, I maintain that this isn't a situation of "I can't afford it". There's a microscopically small group of people that are interested in woodworking that actually cannot afford a Veritas or a L-N plane, the vast majority just don't want to afford it.

There is a simple calculation that anyone can do that cuts all discussion of this point off at the knees - specifically, if you cannot afford $300 for a L-N or a L-V plane, then you cannot afford any of the materials that are required to make almost any piece of furniture, musical instrument, picture frames, or just about any other woodworking anything. So the basics are - if you really can't afford a L-N, you really can't afford to do woodworking, period. The only exception is some unbelievably basic sort of niche woodworking activities like spoon carving, small toy whittling, and rustic chair building, which require a very, very limited set of tools.

And much of the "I don't want to afford a (LN/LV) plane" is driven by an inappropriate calculation about what a woodworking handtool should cost - a smoothing plane actually should cost about $300, and that's on the low end. Anything much below this price point is not really a smoothing plane - it's a smoothing plane shaped object. And I've learned this the hard way after having (and getting rid of) multiple late-manufacture Record, Stanley, Groz and even Clifton planes.

The only reason that you can acquire a plane that is actually a plane for quite a bit less than a LN/LV is that we've a unique sitatuation in history during our lifetime - the technology change to high-speed automation for most materials that go into a house, and the furniture that adorns most houses, means that there are many hundreds of thousands of fewer people that can use or need a good plane. And since this has been a comparitively recent change - within the last 100 years, there are hundreds of thousands of very high quality hand tools laying around waiting for someone to tune them up and use them. And even then, the new high quality manufacturers' products pretty much blow away the antiques (and I use both).

So a word of finality - to those that continue to insist that it must be possible and even noble to manufacture a very high quality handplane that's a superb user out of the box for far less than a LN or a Veritas, puhleeze stop. You're wasting your money on a fool's errand, and it puts inappropriate pressure on the good manufacturers to cut corners to lower costs - you're going to ruin it for the rest of us!

[Mike Henderson]

Our whole economy is based on the premise that someone will find a way to make things better and at less cost. I don't see any reason why tools should be exempt.

The thing we have to beware of is the Chanel syndrome - if it doesn't cost a lot it can't be any good.

It is possible for companies other than LN or LV to make very good tools, and perhaps even charge less.

Mike

[Dan Sink]

Others have stated this better than I

Don't sell yourself short Tony, you did a pretty good job.

[Mark Engel]

Is it really fair to base all of these negative comments about Stanley on one single tool?

Micheal did say that pretty much everything except the iron on his plane seemed to be of high quality. It is possible that his plane just came with a bad iron. Isn't it worth a phone call to Stanley to see if a replacement iron may resolve the issue?

Stanley appears to be trying to produce a good tool. It doesn't seem fair to proclaim that they have failed based on one single example.

[Steven Hart]

Hmm - Well, I maintain that this isn't a situation of "I can't afford it". There's a microscopically small group of people that are interested in woodworking that actually cannot afford a Veritas or a L-N plane, the vast majority just don't want to afford it.

If you argument, David, is "most people possess $300, which is the price of an LN smoothing plane," then I agree. However, that $300 has an opportunity cost that differs among individuals--what you're giving up by paying $300 for a plane is not the same as some other person. Your allusion that anyone who "can't afford" a $300 smoothing plane is some sort of skinflint is not a little insulting.

I really don't see how you can make the determination that a smoothing plane *should cost* $300. If LN sold ten times as many planes this year, the price of that smoother would decrease. If LN sold one tenth the number of planes, I'm sure that self same plane would cost much more than $300. That is to say that there's nothing intrinsic to the LN smoother that "costs" $300--it's simply a price that the market for these planes supports.

[Don Dorn]

I understand your logic, but let's assume you're right and that it's just the iron. His ability to contact Stanley to remedy the situation and the ease of doing so would speak volumes too. Combine that with the not so great reviews that have been done, and I think it's fair to draw a basic conclusion - especially since the asking price is within strike distance of Veratis.

[Jim Koepke]

Our whole economy is based on the premise that someone will find a way to make things better and at less cost. I don't see any reason why tools should be exempt.

The thing we have to beware of is the Chanel syndrome - if it doesn't cost a lot it can't be any good.

It is possible for companies other than LN or LV to make very good tools, and perhaps even charge less.

Mike

I don't know Mike, the dominant force seems to be making something for less without as much focus on quality improvement.

And the cost syndrome does run deep, but we can find inexpensive goods that are of high quality.

If I could make planes as well as LV or LN and charge less at a profit, I think I would give it a go. The cost of market entry is more than I have to invest at the moment.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

There is a one page review in FWW. It does not mention blade problems, but it concludes that these could be good tools if Stanley can fix the quality problems.

jim

[Richard Niemiec]

It very well may be that there will be incremental improvements in the QA/QC of the new Stanley planes. Right now, they have obviously not gotten it right, and perhaps they will in the future if they are committed to this market niche, and it is a niche. But right now, the price differential, in my view, favors LV over the "resurrected" Sweetheart, especially since LV's QA/QC, and customer service when needed (as nobody is perfect) is great, and more importantly, earned over time by performance, not by a logo.

I think Stanley tried, and tried really hard, to design and manufacture something that gives LV, LN and others some competition. If they stick with it, and expand the offerings, something might develop, but right now I am on the sidelines until I see and hear something better about these planes. If they get it right, and perhaps price slightly lower, they might have a winner.

[Sandy Stanford]

Hmm - Well, I maintain that this isn't a situation of "I can't afford it". There's a microscopically small group of people that are interested in woodworking that actually cannot afford a Veritas or a L-N plane, the vast majority just don't want to afford it.

There is a simple calculation that anyone can do that cuts all discussion of this point off at the knees - specifically, if you cannot afford $300 for a L-N or a L-V plane, then you cannot afford any of the materials that are required to make almost any piece of furniture, musical instrument, picture frames, or just about any other woodworking anything. So the basics are - if you really can't afford a L-N, you really can't afford to do woodworking, period. The only exception is some unbelievably basic sort of niche woodworking activities like spoon carving, small toy whittling, and rustic chair building, which require a very, very limited set of tools.

And much of the "I don't want to afford a (LN/LV) plane" is driven by an inappropriate calculation about what a woodworking handtool should cost - a smoothing plane actually should cost about $300, and that's on the low end. Anything much below this price point is not really a smoothing plane - it's a smoothing plane shaped object. And I've learned this the hard way after having (and getting rid of) multiple late-manufacture Record, Stanley, Groz and even Clifton planes.

The only reason that you can acquire a plane that is actually a plane for quite a bit less than a LN/LV is that we've a unique sitatuation in history during our lifetime - the technology change to high-speed automation for most materials that go into a house, and the furniture that adorns most houses, means that there are many hundreds of thousands of fewer people that can use or need a good plane. And since this has been a comparitively recent change - within the last 100 years, there are hundreds of thousands of very high quality hand tools laying around waiting for someone to tune them up and use them. And even then, the new high quality manufacturers' products pretty much blow away the antiques (and I use both).

So a word of finality - to those that continue to insist that it must be possible and even noble to manufacture a very high quality handplane that's a superb user out of the box for far less than a LN or a Veritas, puhleeze stop. You're wasting your money on a fool's errand, and it puts inappropriate pressure on the good manufacturers to cut corners to lower costs - you're going to ruin it for the rest of us!

I'm quite certain there is a very large swath of "woodworkers" who spend every spare dime on tools and relatively little on actual project wood.

I can lay hands on FAS KD 4/4 rough sawn Poplar for about a buck a board foot. With $300 I'd have enough wood for at least three significant painted pieces, say in the Shaker style. With the same three hundred bucks somebody else can meet the UPS man at the door and take delivery of a plane.

I think your math, and your thinking, are screwed up.

Can't smooth with a Cliffy? Sumpn's wrong with that.

[Mike Henderson]

Even if you accept David K.'s premise, you have to consider people who are just beginning to do woodworking. I remember when I started out, it was daunting how many tools were needed, and the amount of money they cost in aggregate. Most people simply do not have that much money to spend.

So it's not just $300 for a smoother, it's several thousand dollars for everything to get set up if you go "top-of-the-line". I'd recommend lower cost tools to a beginning woodworker - tools that will allow them to start producing furniture and improving their skills. Over time, they may decide to trade up, or they may decide that the tools they have will do the job.

Mike

[Mike Cutler]

Mike.

I understand what David is saying and actually agree it too some extent. Quality hand planes through the years have always been expensive when compared to the prevailing wage of the people that actually used them to make a living. They were an investment.
Most of here do this as a hobby of sorts, so I see that side of the coin also.
I kind of compare it to playing a guitar. I learned to play on Silvertones and Kays and such at Sears, Thrifty's and SS Kresge. Absolute junk, but we were hard up and would play anything, we tuned 'em up and played them right there in the stores. I finally bought a Yamaha knockoff when I could afford it. more junk.
I learned to do everything because of playing those junky guitars. Adjust and file nuts and saddles, set the intonation, adjust truss rods, file frets, etc. just to get some marginal performance out of them.
My playing finally took off when I plunked down $800.00 or $900.00 in 1978 for a D-35 Martin at Nick Hanichs Music in So. Cal. I finally had a guitar in my hands that worked! and all I had to do was just play it.
For a kid working in an Alpha Beta supermarket stocking shelves this was serious jack! It was three times the amount of my parent's mortgage payment. I thought my dad was going to kill me when he found out.
Point being. Cheap tools, and cheap guitars, will only impede a person's development. Always buy the best that you can afford and learn to use them. Never be afraid to purchase an expensive tool, as long as it's the right tool for your needs. There are no viable lessons to be learned from inferior, crappy tools. As with those guitars; Better to learn to play music than just learn to overhaul and tune junky guitars.
I recently sold a bunch of LN planes. Great tools, but they just didn't fit my needs. I still have a bunch of them that better suit my style of wood working.
I still have that D-35 Martin too.

[Richard Niemiec]

Mike: On the subject of guitars, I don't play, but went on a factory tour at the Martin Guitar Factory in Nazareth PA, and if you haven't been I would recommend it; if for nothing else to see their museum, which has a few displays of woodworking tools but a whole bunch of guitars. What amazed me, (and the day I was there they had a gathering of the "Unofficial Martin Guitar Owners Association" or something like that) there were all these guitar players picking on these $3000 and $8000 guitars they had hanging on the wall in the company store; folks just sitting on the stools they had there and playing away. Quite something for me to see. One of these days I'm going to make a guitar and then learn how to play it.

[James Scheffler]

Hmm - Well, I maintain that this isn't a situation of "I can't afford it". There's a microscopically small group of people that are interested in woodworking that actually cannot afford a Veritas or a L-N plane, the vast majority just don't want to afford it.

There is a simple calculation that anyone can do that cuts all discussion of this point off at the knees - specifically, if you cannot afford $300 for a L-N or a L-V plane, then you cannot afford any of the materials that are required to make almost any piece of furniture, musical instrument, picture frames, or just about any other woodworking anything. So the basics are - if you really can't afford a L-N, you really can't afford to do woodworking, period.

I think you're way out of step with most woodworkers. $300 is a big-ticket item for me. If that was the entry level (considering that several tools are needed to do just about any project) I wouldn't be woodworking. I would need to save for a few years before building the first thing. Am I destitute? No, but there are just way too many competing priorities in life.

Fortunately, we do have quite a nice supply of antique tools at low prices, and they're a wonderful resource for those who would have to stretch for more expensive tools. If they didn't exist, I think way more of us would be building most of our tools instead of paying $300 for one plane.

I don't doubt that LV and LN planes are great. If people have the desire and the money for those planes, they should buy them. However, it is clearly possible to do great work with lesser tools (something I don't claim, but aspire to). I don't think it's right to belittle those who would choose that path.

Jim