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Thread: NEW - Sweet Heart Plane, disappointing

  1. #61
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    Have any of you read Chris Schwarz's and Joel Moskowitz's new book, The Joiner and Cabinet Maker? The sort version is that it's a recounting of an apprenticeship, but what's relevant to this discussion is that it shows that relatively few tools are needed to be able to make projects. Here's a list of the tools that are used in the book, and to put things in perspective, the last project that the apprentice makes is a chest of drawers.
    • Marking & Measuring Tools
    • Try square
    • Chalk line
    • 2' Folding rule
    • Marking gauge
    • Panel gauge
    • Wooden straightedge
    • Marking knife

    • Saws
    • Handsaw
    • Sash saw
    • Dovetail saw
    • Bowsaw

    • Planes
    • Jack plane
    • Trying plane
    • Smoothing plane
    • Rabbet plane
    • Plow plane

    • Other Tools
    • Bench chisels
    • 1/4" Mortising chisel
    • Mallet
    • Hammer
    • Nailset
    • Bradawl
    • Brace and bits
    • Turnscrew
    • File
    • Steel plate (for clinching and straightening nails)

    You also need a sharpening system of some sort.

    Now, of the tools on this list, one could argue that the only ones you need to be LN/LV quality are the trying plane (jointer), smoothing plane, rabbet plane, and plow plane. For the planes, that's a total of $1325 for the Lie-Nielsen #4, #7, and #10-1/4, plus the Lee Valley Veritas small plow plane. You could add sash saw and dovetail saw onto the high end tool list if you're not clever enough to start with an inexpensive Japanese saw. Add in a Wenzloff dovetail and tenon saw for those who insist on using western saws, and that's another $310, for a grand total of $1635 in quality out of the box tools. If you wanted some quality chisels, that might be another $300, which still brings the total to under $2000 in high-falutin' tools. Everything else on the list you can get at the borg, and be fine with it.

    Now consider our friends who use electron burning tools. I don't think anyone would argue that a typical power tool setup would look much different than this:

    • Table saw
    • Bandsaw
    • Jointer
    • Planer
    • Drill press
    • Router
    • Random orbital sander

    If you're shopping for this list of tools, you can easily hit the $2000 mark, even with budget versions of these tools from the Grizzly catalog. No one ever seems to balk at the idea that spending $2000 on low end power tools is an outrageous sum of money, yet there seems to be this consistent feeling that a similar price for a collection of high end hand tools is out of line. I'm not sure why that is.

  2. #62
    My first reaction to these planes: Why did Stanley feel the need to copy Lee Valley...

  3. #63
    Regarding buying tools when first starting woodworking, I can only offer my experiences and my observations of other people who are just starting in woodworking. I attend Cerritos College woodworking program so I get to see and talk with quite a few beginners.

    Most are feeling out woodworking and their capabilities - and some will stick with it, and some will not go any further. Some have a natural ability and some just can't "see" how it all works.

    Most of those people start with nothing. They come to the first class with a pencil and some paper. They are given a list of tools they need for the class, but most of it is very basic stuff - ruler, combination square, etc. For some of the people, just purchasing that much is difficult. The school provides all the tools, both power and hand tools - although you soon learn the disadvantage of sharing things like planes with others (they're never sharp).

    After the first class, where the students learn safety and build a few simple projects, some move on to more advanced projects, such as a simple table (like a nightstand). Those who advance usually buy a few more tools, but I've watched (and talked with) them as they debate spending even $50 for an older Stanley Bailey Jack plane. It's not the $50 - it's that they have a family and other things that also need $50. Spending $300 on a plane is just impossible for them to even think about.

    When I started, I had a cheap portable table saw. Eventually, someone gave me a Craftsman contractor's saw with a burned out motor, which was a significant upgrade for me. I found a new motor and spent quite a bit of time setting up the saw. I still have that saw and have produced quite a bit of furniture with it, although I'm now planning to upgrade to a cabinet saw.

    I don't think my experience or the experience of the students at Cerritos is unusual - I think that people who spend several thousand dollars when just starting woodworking is the unusual situation.

    So the advice I give to new woodworkers is to buy what you can afford, even if it's not LN or LV, and use the tools to produce furniture. You'll learn a lot on the way, and the goal is to produce furniture, not collect expensive tools.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    After the first class, where the students learn safety and build a few simple projects, some move on to more advanced projects, such as a simple table (like a nightstand). Those who advance usually buy a few more tools, but I've watched (and talked with) them as they debate spending even $50 for an older Stanley Bailey Jack plane. It's not the $50 - it's that they have a family and other things that also need $50. Spending $300 on a plane is just impossible for them to even think about.
    So my question for this student would be, would spending $300 for a tablesaw seem reasonable?

    If not, then we're back to David's point -- if you can't afford that amount of money for this hobby, you won't be able to afford the wood, either.

    And if so, why is a tablesaw worth $300, but not a high end plane? As I noted above, for people who are thinking about outfitting a shop with power tools, spending $2000 is pretty easy to do, but I rarely hear people gripe about the cost of power tools in that price range. But for the same budget, you can get some top quality hand tools that will do the same things an array of low end power tools can do.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbur Pan View Post
    So my question for this student would be, would spending $300 for a tablesaw seem reasonable?

    If not, then we're back to David's point -- if you can't afford that amount of money for this hobby, you won't be able to afford the wood, either.

    And if so, why is a tablesaw worth $300, but not a high end plane? As I noted above, for people who are thinking about outfitting a shop with power tools, spending $2000 is pretty easy to do, but I rarely hear people gripe about the cost of power tools in that price range. But for the same budget, you can get some top quality hand tools that will do the same things an array of low end power tools can do.
    For people who are starting out in a traditional (power tool) program, a table saw is the center of the shop and is used on every project.

    For planes, it's very possible to use older Stanley planes and produce very acceptable results, provide you have some instruction on how to sharpen and set up the plane.

    Mike

    [Power tools have an analogy. Very few new woodworkers buy an Industrial SawStop as their first table saw. Most buy a low cost table saw (maybe even a used saw) and only upgrade later. It's because they (and their family) just can't bite off that much money when the person is just starting out.]
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 02-13-2010 at 4:53 PM.
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbur Pan View Post
    And if so, why is a tablesaw worth $300, but not a high end plane? As I noted above, for people who are thinking about outfitting a shop with power tools, spending $2000 is pretty easy to do, but I rarely hear people gripe about the cost of power tools in that price range. But for the same budget, you can get some top quality hand tools that will do the same things an array of low end power tools can do.
    This is precisely the point I was making. As I noted in the post, it's quite possible to buy a decent pre-war Stanley, outfit it with a new blade (or not), and get a perfectly decent smoother that is far, far better than the junk newly-manufactured planes that are thought of as "entry level".

    The difficulty I was pointing out is that one of the more common implied thoughts in these type of threads is that a $300 LV(LN) plane is somehow outrageous. It isn't, and with all due respect, $300 for a once per lifetime purchase that is a critically important tool to a hand tool woodworker is just not out of the range for the vast majority of woodworkers. Whether it hurts to spend that much on a tool rather than a new dishwasher is another question, and one I can't answer, but it really doesn't have anything to do with whether someone can't afford a Lie-Nielsen handplane. In fact, it's the definition of "I don't want to afford a Lie-Nielsen handplane".

    But the idea that buying the very small handful of high-quality bench planes that are required for the purpose is budget-busting simply doesn't make sense - you only need 2 of these (a jointer and a smoother), and the third required plane (a fore plane) can be a rough-as-a-cob $20 wooden handplane from the flea market. Just the wood required for a work bench that will actually allow you to do handtool work is going to cost $300, and probably well over that.

    The simple reality is that you've really 3 choices - buy high quality as you can afford it (as I've done), buy pre-war Stanley, Union, Keen Kutter, etc... for a lot less and tune them up (also done that - and it works quite well), or take a real chance that you might get a usable example of the newly-manufactured "entry" handplanes. Unfortunately, the likely answer to the last one is that you stand a substantial chance of getting an unusable example. And from the standpoint of actually being frugal with your funds, the last choice doesn't make any sense at all.
    Last edited by David Keller NC; 02-13-2010 at 4:50 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by David Keller NC View Post
    The difficulty I was pointing out is that one of the more common implied thoughts in these type of threads is that a $300 LV(LN) plane is somehow outrageous.
    The point I have been trying to make is that for many beginning woodworkers, $300 is far beyond what they are willing or able to spend for a single plane. We don't do them a favor by suggesting they buy a LN plane as their first plane. All we do is discourage them from woodworking.

    If they indicate they have that much money and are willing to spend it on a plane, then it's a good suggestion. But from my experience with beginning woodworkers, that's way beyond reach for many of them.

    Mike

    [In talking with beginning woodworkers, I've had the occasion to talk with them about LN planes. Many have never heard about LN before. But when I tell them the cost of the planes, their faces clearly register shock.]
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    We don't do them a favor by suggesting they buy a LN plane as their first plane. All we do is discourage them from woodworking.
    Acutally, what we're doing is precisely that (doing them a favor). I would bet more than a beer that what actually discourages most beginning woodworkers to the point that they drop the craft is frustration with the results that they get, not the expense. And the tools that they have influence those results greatly (as does a knowledge deficit).

    This is precisely why I strongly suggest that those I've taught buy a LN or a LV medium length plane as their first one, because it will work superbly out of the box. There are few tools where one can say that, and it's easily worth the money, even for a graduate student (which is when I bought my first LN).

  9. #69
    I'd take that bet. You must have wealthier woodworkers than we have around here.

    Of course, most (all) of them are not hand tool only workers. Primarily, they're power tools workers. And they use the power tools at school until they can equip their shop.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  10. #70
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    Not wealthier, just not cheap (which is independent of income).

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by David Keller NC View Post
    Not wealthier, just not cheap (which is independent of income).
    I can absolutely assure you that the woodworkers I know are not "cheap". They're good people trying to support their families and use their hobby to create something that they can use and leave to their children.

    But they aren't wealthy and have to be very careful about their spending (as do I).

    While LN tools are very good, our ancestors produced some outstanding furniture with Stanley, and even wooden, planes. It's not necessary for a woodworker to spend thousands of dollars on either power or hand tools to create beautiful furniture. Knowledge is more important than the cost of the tools.

    Mike
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 02-13-2010 at 7:16 PM.
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  12. #72
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    Reading all of this took a long time.

    1) I can't remember if the Original Poster had a chance to call Stanley Customer Service yet.

    2) It really is a gift that the old tools are still plentiful enough for a new woodworker to buy a plane and fix it up.

    3) Sometimes you can get low cost and high quality - Mujingfang planes.

    4) Sometimes an experienced woodworker can pass on a few key extra tools to a newcomer (happened to me - thanks Mario) to get started.

    5) My first experience in woodworking was to take some free redwood from the junkyard and make a chair out of it with my dad's drill (with sanding pad) and a jigsaw. Now I can buy tools. Then I could not.
    Veni Vidi Vendi Vente! I came, I saw, I bought a large coffee!

  13. #73
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    Agreed David. I was never a fan of hand planes because the crap I use to own came from the box stores and never worked. When I was finally introduced to a 'real' plane my attitude changed.
    With skill and tool we put our trust and when that won't do then power we must.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Keller NC View Post
    Not wealthier, just not cheap (which is independent of income).
    David,

    I suspect you approach woodworking with a passion and single-mindedness that most beginning woodworkers do not have (or perhaps that they just don't know they have it yet). I would guess that's why you're not seeing the other side of this argument. That sense of purpose is what rearranges priorities and makes a person want to spend $2000 on high-end hand tools. You're argument that you only need a great jointer and smoother to get started may be true, but it still will cost close to $800 if you buy LN. That's a lot of money.

    Many people will need a certain amount of experience in the craft, using hand tools, before they realize they love it enough to spend that kind of money. To many people, that's a "deplete the bank account and cancel the girls' dance lessons" kind of proposition.

    I think you're correct that using crappy tools will only turn people off. That's the value of antiques - cheap but can be made to work well.

    Jim

  15. #75
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    Out of curiosity - how many beginneing woodworkers can make proper use of a LN plane as their first, and how many could keep it as sharp (or any plane for that matter) as it needs to be to prevent frustration?

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