New or Refurbish?

[Jason Conwell]

I have been surfing the web and seen many people who have refurbished older planes and etc..Are these older refurbished planes up to par with the new planes from Veritas and LN? Or is it not worth the hassle and be better off just buying new planes/hand tools? If anyway has refurbished any tools was it worth it? Advice?

[jerry nazard]

Jason,

Lot's of threads on the subject, also stuff in this link: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=103805

Many of us restore vintage tools, especially planes. However, that should never dissuade you from owning LN / LV, etc.

-Jerry

[Jason Conwell]

Thanks I will check out that thread

[Jim Koepke]

Most of the wood I have worked comes out just as smooth with my late 19th and early 20th century Stanley/Bailey planes as can be achieved by a new plane form Lie-Nielsen.

Many of my planes have required a lot of work to get past the pits on the blade or to remove rust.

It can be frustrating or a disappointment to purchase a plane seen on ebay and receive a tool with hidden damage. In my twisted way, I am often looking for some cheap parts and become disappointed when a good useable tool arrives.

I can not give an opinion on the offerings from Lee Valley since I have not had the opportunity to handle their planes.

I have handled the LN planes at a few tool shows and also own one that is not a representative size that I have been able to compare to an old Stanley/Bailey plane.

The LN planes are not only made to a higher standard than the old S/Bs, they are also a bit heavier. The Stanley Bedrock design is the basis for the LN design, but the fit and finish on the LN is still better. LN also offers additional frogs to vary the blade pitch.

The older planes can be brought up to a level of performance that is at least close to equal in most cases. Possibly the biggest difference with the LN planes is due to their weight and improved design, there is less vibration. Another way of saying this is the planes have more dampening effect due to their mass. Some people like "the feel of the wood" being transfered through the plane. This is most noticeable with wooden body planes or less mass.

My advice is if you do not have dire budget restrictions, then the LN planes are a good value. They do hold their value.

In many cases, people who do not have "budget restrictions" do not have a lot of time. If you are in a position of having some time to spare or enjoy tinkering with things, then buying old and restoring can save money. It can surely take time. It can also be very enjoyable. For me, it has also allowed me to make a few extra dollars albeit at an hourly rate that is less than required by law in every state or our nation.

An in between option is to buy a plane from one of the many sources that buy planes and insure they are all there and resell them. Some of these folks sell a complete "kit" meaning they do not do a lot of fettling, they just check and make sure it is all there and nothing is broken. Others like to do a full & complete restoration before selling.

Buying new is kind of like instant gratification, with a little delay for the delivery.

Buying old and used is like enhanced training in sensory awareness. You can get hooked on it and you will start to smell rust as you are traveling through areas with junk shops and antique stores.

This makes me think of Edward Murrow who once said, "Anyone who isn't totally confused just doesn't understand the situation."

Happy hunting,

jim

[John Stan]

I have been surfing the web and seen many
people who have refurbished older planes and etc..Are these older refurbished planes up to par with the new planes from Veritas and LN? Or is it not worth the hassle and be better off just buying new planes/hand tools? If anyway has refurbished any tools was it worth it? Advice?

In my experience, rehabbing a plane is not as cheap as you would think. For example, if you do not have in possession all the sheets of sand paper to lap the sole, expect to go to Home Depot and spend $5 - $10 on some sand paper. If you need any type of rust remover, expect to pay $10 for the rust remover. Adding a Hock blade and and chip breaker is a good idea $60 for the blade and chip breaker. So, you might end up adding another $60 to $80 on top of the price of the plane to have the materials to rehab it to perform like a new plane. Buying old planes site un-seen has its risks. I have LN, Veritas, and rehabbed baileys. In all cases the LN and Veritas planes perform a little better than the rehabbed plane. The rehabbed planes have the nostalgic factor.

My two cents.

[Tom Henderson2]

I have been surfing the web and seen many people who have refurbished older planes and etc..Are these older refurbished planes up to par with the new planes from Veritas and LN? Or is it not worth the hassle and be better off just buying new planes/hand tools? If anyway has refurbished any tools was it worth it? Advice?

A lot depends on how much you enjoy restoring old tools, your finances, and your metalworking skills.

A new LN will only need some blade work and you will be ready to go. You will also be assured that the plane is good; so you can fairly assess your technique when using it. If you decide that handtools aren't for you, you can sell it for 80% of what you paid.

Rehabbing an old Stanley will likely require some sole flattening; some have reported good results, but you can just make things worse, too. Best to have the plane sole ground flat by a machinist; prices vary but figure $50 to $100 depending on size and who does the work.

The old stanley blades vary; some are good, some not so. And some are in good shape, some have significant problems. A replacement from Hock, LN or LV is probably $30 to $75.

Ditto the chipbreaker.

So.... just comparing initial purchase prices may not be the proper cost comparison.

I had on older Stanley #3 that I had fettled to the best of my ability; hand-lapped the sole, etc. Results were OK but not great. I bought a Hock blade and Chipreaker; big improvement. THen I sent it out and had the sole ground flat, HUGE improvement. I love it.... but in hind sight I could have bought an LN for only a bit more money and would have been able to spend a lot more time woodworking instead of plane fettling.

So consider the options and make a choice. There are some very good deals here and on Woodnet for older Stanleys; be patient and wait for one with an upgraded blade and perhaps a ground sole.

Or if you really enjoy the fettling aspect, buy one that needs some TLC and work it up to top-notch shape.

As my dad used to say, "Pay your money and take your choice!)

-TH

[Matt Radtke]

Generally speaking, I've not spent more than $35 per plane--at least the ones I've kept. The exception to that my first 5 1/2, which came to almost $50 with shipping, but I did buy that one from a dealer. Have they needed work? DEAR GOD YES, but it was a lot of fun. Amortize the cost of my buffing wheel, buffing compound, sand paper, and some scrap rosewood to fix some broken horns, and we can add about $1.5-$2 per plane. Maximum.

Remember, $35/plane. That even includes all three 7s (one with a hock blade and breaker), both 8s (one with a LN A2 blade and chip breaker), and both 4 1/2s that have come through my shop. Though that pre-WWII 8 is in sad, sad shape. You just have to be patient and look for good deals.

[Jim Koepke]

In my experience, rehabbing a plane is not as cheap as you would think. For example, if you do not have in possession all the sheets of sand paper to lap the sole, expect to go to Home Depot and spend $5 - $10 on some sand paper. If you need any type of rust remover, expect to pay $10 for the rust remover. Adding a Hock blade and and chip breaker is a good idea $60 for the blade and chip breaker. So, you might end up adding another $60 to $80 on top of the price of the plane to have the materials to rehab it to perform like a new plane. Buying old planes site un-seen has its risks. I have LN, Veritas, and rehabbed baileys. In all cases the LN and Veritas planes perform a little better than the rehabbed plane. The rehabbed planes have the nostalgic factor.

My two cents.

That is a fairly decent representation of what rehabbing is all about. Some differences are that I will use citric acid for rust removal and it is less than a buck a gallon if you can find the citric acid powder to mix your own. One person posted about using powdered lemon aide mix with good results. It can be stored and saved for later use.

Other people prefer to use vinegar. Buy an inexpensive gallon jug and do not let the wife use it for salad dressing.

I like my Hock blades, but old blades and chip breakers are usually useable. There really is not a whole lot of difference. The newer blades may be able to hold an edge better. They are also a bit thicker so there is less vibration.

One thing John did not mention is if you want to make your old rehab real nice is a can of spray paint. Some folks like to custom color their old planes, some folks think of this as sacrilege. If it is your plane, you can do whatever you want with it.

jim

[David Gendron]

Vintage planes work just as good, if you know what you are doing. In fact, I like my stanley better than my LN...
An other thing, I don't know what is your access to vintage tools, but for me it never been possible to find hand planes as cheep as other guys here are stating, when I include shipping, new blades etc... but still way cheeper than a new LV/LN.

[Jim Koepke]

You just have to be patient and look for good deals.

That should be a Neander bumper sticker.

I am still looking to beat my sweetest good deal. A #4-1/2 type 6, good to go with the original blade for $30. The only problem was it had a lever cap from a transitional plane. That was easily corrected.

I have since come across deals that have made more profit than this one even has the potential to do, but it is still my fondest memory of rust hunting.

jim

[Bill Houghton]

If you have more time than money, used is fine. If the opposite, buy new.

And, if you buy used, don't get caught up in this "pimp out your plane" business. Re-japanning or even painting your plane will NOT improve its capabilities.

I've done plenty of planing and have yet to spend time flattening a plane's sole. I have, I will admit, made the mistake of getting planes with soles far enough out of flat that I didn't keep them - but I buy cheap at garage sales, so it was a useful lesson for not much money.

Cleaning a plane - getting rid of rust, dirt, and dead spiders - is useful. Lubricating moving parts and waxing all surfaces is useful. Learning to sharpen (80-90% of "tuning" a plane, in my opinion) is vital. But the first two will cost you under $10, and the last is something you need to know even if you buy a high-end plane.

[Sean Hughto]

You can buy very good vintage 3, 4 and 5's (very common sizes and hence cheap) on eBay for roughly $20 to $40. In this price range, many need very little work to function well. We are not talking about electrolysis and endless hours with sandpaper lapping and lapping, we are talking about a good cleaning and sharpening that takes around an hour all tolled. These planes will work well, and can be made to work even better with a new blade like one of LN's Stanley replacement blades or a Hock. On normal, reasonable grained woods, the results will be indistinguishable from a LN or LV. The LN and LV begin to pull away when you face tasks like smoothing fiddle back, birdsay, etc. grains. For 90% of waht most fellas do, the vintage Stanley's (or similar Sargents, etc.) will performs more than adequately. That said, it's awfully nice to pull a plane out of a box, hone the blade, and have it work rather effortlessly. Nice tools are nice to use, no doubt about it.

[glenn bradley]

You're just trying to start something, aren't you? Obviously many opinions on this. Answers will vary depending what you can afford, how you enjoy spending your time and other factors. There are certainly many older planes that will perform admirably compared to "modern" planes. If well designed and put into a workable condition, there is no reason they shouldn't.

I enjoy part of my shop time by organizing things to allow a good workflow. This doesn't get anything built in and of itself but, I enjoy it and am willing to spend my time doing it. If you enjoy restoring older machines or hand tools, you will be happy doing that as part of your shop time. I don't enjoy this and a good portion of that feeling is probably that I am just not very good at it ;-)

As others have mentioned getting a nice older plane for $20 to $40 is just the start. The work that follows may be very little, it may be more than you want to put in. If you are looking for a No. 8 jointer, the starting price will probably be higher as may be the effort to get it in shape.

[David Keller NC]

This is what I'd say about the cost question:

There is a risk associated with buying an old Stanley off of e-bay. You can considerably reduce this risk by reading Jim's "What to look for" thread. However, you can't eliminate this risk, and if you buy a fair number of planes off of e-bay, odds are very good that you'll get one or more that are unfixable (cracked cast iron) or would take too much money in spare parts to be worthwhile. The way I think of it, the risk can be put in monetary terms at about 20% of the cost of any plane you buy sight unseen. My guess is that you can reduce this to below 5% of the cost by only buying planes that you can put your hands on and examine in person.

Then there is the time-is-money equation. Generally speaking, if your time is something you cost out at $25 an hour, it will be a rare pre-war Stanley that would actually be "worth it" to restore. However, if you prefer to refurbish planes rather than build other things (and there are lots of us out there that consider this work "fun"), this consideration may not apply. However, you should generally not expect to get anything close to your investment of time and materials if you then decide to sell the plane.

There is an alternative, however - you can buy a 1950's Stanley in "collector's condition" from an established dealer that is trustworthy such as Lee Richmond at The Best Things. Such a plane should be expected to have close to zero use, and will be perfect in all respects. Assuming that the metal in the blade is good, such a plane will need no extra parts and very little fettling other than honing the blade. Expect to pay about 60% more than you would for a well-used but still restorable plane off of e-bay. 60% may sound like a lot, but it usually represents only about $30-$40 extra unless you're talking about a rare model.

From the standpoint of how the planes work (antique Stanley vs LN/LV), my experience has been that the LV/LN planes do have a performance edge over the Stanelys. Specifically, the much thicker blades in the LV/LN models chatter considerably less on figured wood, and I find that the precision in the machining of the hgih-quality new planes allow one to get a considerably finer mouth opening. On my antique Stanelys that are in use in the shop (5 of them to date, with more in "collection" mode), the slop in the frog adjustment screws means that I can't practically close the mouth beyond about 20-30 thousandths of an inch. With a L-N, 5 thousandths is pretty much automatic, and with a purpose-made infill, about 2 thousandths is the norm.

Naturally, the mouth opening will not make one whit of difference in a roughing plane, nor a jointer. It only really matters in a smoothing plane, and only then in ill-behaved grain.

So if you want to mix your choices (antique Stanleys and LV/LN) to make the most of a limited budget, I'd consider buying a Stanley #6 in good shape and possibly replace the iron with a Hock (the hocks are way harder and will stand up to the abuse that a roughing plane endures), buy a Stanley or a Record #7 in good to excellent condition from one of the dealers, and a LV or LN for your smoothing plane.

[Mike Brady]

I suggest a bit of caution and self-examinaton regarding this topic and the various posts here. Because someone with a lot of experience with plane fettling has found enough success to claim that an old plane can work like a new one doesn't mean you will have that success. It also doesn't mean that you can't have a heck of a good time trying. One of the best reasons to work on old planes is that you learn how they go together, how they work and how they are adjusted. This is knowledge you must have if you are to be successfull with any plane, of any vintage. So when I say use caution, don't be disappointed if your fettled and Hock-bladed Vintage plane doesn't make shavings like a Lie-Nielsen.

There is much to be said for preserving old tools you come by and using them in your craft. Planes from the new makers are fabulous, but the prices are pretty fabulous too. If you can afford them and want to just (un) plug and play....go for it. Old planes and chisels can be had at a fraction of the price of a top quality new tools. Good old planes seem to be particularly cheap right now. There are many very good ones available for $50.00 or under. Old tool hunting and collecting is a whole different thing. It involves a lot of time acquiring and then working on metal, not wood. You don't even have to be a woodworker to enjoy it...but it helps.

My guess it that many of the planes that are found and put back to good condition don't get used regularly. Many of them get crowded out of use by their newer counterparts. That is true in my case, at least.

So you have a few strategies available:
-Buy a few old planes and experiment with them.
-Acquire some planes at greater cost from people who have already worked on them. They aren't much more in cost than untouched planes.
-Skip the fooling around and invest in quality modern planes.

Have fun and work some wood along the way.