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Thread: Sharp tools with matte finishes

  1. #31
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    Pam,I wondered when you would join in. It was you,I think,who stated that the Japanese tools were designed primarily for soft woods. Since I don't use them,I bow to your knowledge of them. Any comment?

  2. #32
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    As far as Japanese tools go, I think saying they are mainly for softwood is a wrong assumption. Maybe what's available outside of Japan tend to be softwood oriented types, but within Japan, plane blades and chisels are offered in far more variety of steels for all type of wood material than elsewhere. You can find anything from high carbon blade and all the way up to powdered steel, HSS and other exotic steel that we don't hear much about.

    Foreign tools never made it much into Japan's woodworking industry, those who use non-Japanese tools are few and far in between. Historically speaking, Japan has used a lot of hardwood to make various things without foreign tools, one of the most notable piece of 'furniture' is butsudan, a family shrine in homes, normally made from ebony or other dark yet beautiful wood and quite big piece at that. Many of them do have quite intricate carving and design. I'm sure nowadays that's done by machine, but before the age of machines, they were done with tools that probably weren't much, if any, different from other Japanese tools.

    Even in north America and Europe, a lot of things are made with pine, but to say their tools are designed for softwood is misguided at best. The thing about Japanese tools is that the blacksmith who made those blades weren't too far from the buyers (craftsman and carpenters). If buyers needed a blade of certain characteristics, blacksmith were able to make them.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ashton View Post
    But what you should really be talking about with respect to how "shiny" or "reflective" an edge should be is the relative time it will stay sharp. What you may not have noticed in those micro graphs is the more irregular edge produced on the "less shiny" edge. Those irregularities will break off much quicker and leave you with a tool that no longer has a usably sharp edge.
    As far as how durable the edges are in use, my experience is that if I finish sharpening with a natural Japanese waterstone, the edge seems to last a little while longer, although the difference isn't huge. In any case, edge durability certainly isn't an advantage for a shiny edge -- at best it's a draw.

    In this picture from Ron Hock's blog post, the photo on the left is a tool sharpened with a natural waterstone. It certainly seems more regular than the one on the right, which was sharpened with a man made waterstone.


  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Takeuchi View Post
    As far as Japanese tools go, I think saying they are mainly for softwood is a wrong assumption....

    Historically speaking, Japan has used a lot of hardwood to make various things without foreign tools, one of the most notable piece of 'furniture' is butsudan, a family shrine in homes, normally made from ebony or other dark yet beautiful wood and quite big piece at that. Many of them do have quite intricate carving and design.
    To expand on this, there are many hardwood species that turn up in Japanese furniture. You can see a discussion of this here. I've successfully used Japanese tools in many domestic hardwoods, including cherry, maple, oak, and walnut.

    Japanese toolmakers and woodworkers would often alter the tool to optimize its performance for the wood species they were using. For chisels and plane blades, it was a simple matter of altering the bevel angle of the tool, if needed. Saw teeth were often reshaped to suit the wood that was being sawed.

  5. #35
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    I just wanted to see what Pam had to say about it. the tall,stalky teeth normally seen on Japanese saws seem delicate and easy to break off. I'm glad to hear that they were reshaped for sawing different woods. That seems like a cumbersome process,though. I'll stick with our Western style teeth.

  6. #36
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    For those who knew how to do it, it's not a real cumbersome task. The issue of the crosscut teeth being too tall on a Japanese saw really has more to do with the types of Japanese saws that are imported for sale in the U.S. To say that Japanese saws are not suitable for sawing hardwoods based on that experience would be like saying that English mortising chisels were unsuitable for making mortises in hardwoods if the only mortising chisels that were imported from England had a 15º bevel, when you could get English mortising chisels with a 25º bevel and a 30º microbevel only if you travelled to England.

    In Japan, you can get saws with teeth more suitable for harder woods. In my case, when I ordered the ryoba that I use all the time, I just asked the saw maker to make me a ryoba that was suitable for joinery cuts in 4/4 stock in North American hardwoods. So that's what he sent me. Here's my saw doing a crosscut in white oak:



    Reshaping saw teeth for the species of wood that was being worked on was historically done for western saws as well. Although the saw tooth shape is somewhat different, the principles are the same.
    Last edited by Wilbur Pan; 03-16-2010 at 2:21 PM.

  7. #37
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    I said It SEEMS.Apparently you agree since you got a saw with different teeth.

  8. #38
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    I think the same thing is done with our western tools, different bevel angle for different wood, different ppi for different task on diferent wood, what aboput the different slope, fleam and rake on saws!?! Don't try to chop white oak or sugar maple or even yellow birch with a 25* bevel on your chisel, it wont last long! The same same chisel will do in white pine no problem! I have some Stanley 720 chisel that I change the bevel to 25* for paring, and threy break down realy fast in every wood harder than pine, does that meen they were not made for hard wood?

  9. #39
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    I am talking about saws,David. Anyone knows to regrind chisels. Those long,skinny saw teeth look very fragile. Pan apparently agrees. I don't want to have to buy duplicate saws to do hardwood. Too little space left already from being an old tool pig!!

  10. #40
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    These are the teeth of a Japanese saw that I was able to cut a piece of ipe with.



    And here are the teeth of the ryoba that I previously showed cutting the white oak board.



    They are still taller and skinnier than what is seen in western saws.

    Wilson, you did not specify chisels or saws in your original statement about Japanese tools. And David did mention saws in his post.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbur Pan View Post
    These are the teeth of a Japanese saw that I was able to cut a piece of ipe with.


    Wilbur that is and interesting tooth pattern with the varying gullet depths. Any insight on why?

    Rob

  12. #42
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    comparing a shaving razor to a really sharp woodworking tool under a microscope will show you that razor is dull as hell. just like a kitchen knife to cut meat you don't want it too sharp or it takes more effort to cut.
    my japanese tools will shave hair like no tomorrow. but they will also take off a layer of skin and cause irritation. a kitchen knife sharpened to say 1000 grit will cut meat with less effort then one sharpened to 8000 grit.
    Steve knight
    cnc routing

  13. #43
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    George, you should read slower or read all the post! I talked about saws also!!

  14. #44
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    Now we are talking Steve!!

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Pam,I wondered when you would join in. It was you,I think,who stated that the Japanese tools were designed primarily for soft woods. Since I don't use them,I bow to your knowledge of them. Any comment?
    You'll have to find me the quote where I said Japanese tools were designed for soft woods, because right now I can't imagine having said that. It's not what I think, generally.

    As to my coming into the conversation, this isn't the first time I've had it; and the only reason I pitched in was because I thought Wilbur's conditions for a chemical reaction would perhaps be met. Probably not, but I gave it my best.

    As to sharpening, I much prefer the edges I get with natural stones (even though I don't have much of a budget for them), and I prefer the natural stones sharpening process itself. Why? Because the process feels right and the resulting edges feel right. One of these days perhaps I'll be able to qualify that statement, but not today.

    Pam
    Last edited by Pam Niedermayer; 03-17-2010 at 10:26 AM.

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