Sharp tools with matte finishes

[george wilson]

Pretty sure it was you,Pam,but not important to try to search for it.

[Tim Put]

But I do have personal experience with this in relation to the nodular iron material that L-N makes their planes out of. I flattened the sole of a 60-1/2 block plane on both a coarse diamond plate and 800 grit silicon oxide wet-dry paper. The surface left after the diamond plate is silver colored and shiny, though scratches were visible to the naked eye. After the SiC paper, the surface was rendered very, very smooth (no visible scratches), but an overall matte gray color. I've reproduced this effect on older chisels and plane blades (generally "cast steel") - some of them come off of the Norton and King 8000 grit waterstones a dull matte gray color, though you can still see yourself in the reflection. However, these same tools produced a shiny-bright surface from a Shapton fine grit stone (I think it was a 6000 grit, but not positive).

I lap on a Kanaban (very coarse lapping gets the surface plate and sandpaper). When lapping with diamond paste or with SiC and water I get a shiny surface, when lapping with SiC and oil I get a matte grey finish.

[Wilbur Pan]

Wilbur that is and interesting tooth pattern with the varying gullet depths. Any insight on why?

Rob

I'm not sure why this saw has this particular pattern. I've never seen this pattern in any other saw, Japanese or otherwise. It's called the Multi Window saw (that's a really wacky name), and is available at www.japanesetools.com. I have the 270mm version, and it comes in a 240mm size as well. It is a kick ass general purpose saw. I've done everything with this saw from crosscutting 4x4's, making rip cuts in 8/4 material, and it cuts well in 4x4 material and plywood as well.

The only thing that I can think of as far as the tooth pattern goes is that it's designed to handle a wide variety of materials. It could be that the short teeth allows this saw to cut in harder woods, and the large gullets gives the sawdust a place to go if you are cutting softer woods, which tend to generate more and larger sawdust particles.

[Wilbur Pan]

Pretty sure it was you,Pam,but not important to try to search for it.

Nonetheless, the thought that you are recalling about whether Japanese tools were "designed" for softwoods is still incorrect.

[george wilson]

Why don't you stop this endless arguing? Somehow I have gotten through life,done the work I have done,and managed to do it for a living. Can you do the work I can? It took very sharp tools to do it. I don't care about your endless discussions which amount to how many angels can dance on a pin head.

Sorry if I sound arrogant. It isn't bragging if you can do it. With what I have accomplished,it is silly to keep up these endless discussions with an amateur. If your tools are sharp enough to make you happy,use them.



I get my Western tools sharp enough to do my work. There are many ways to sharpen a chisel. So what? Skill is the main component in any case,not some magical,highly overpriced stone.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pretty sure it was you,Pam,but not important to try to search for it.

I think you'd better try and find it, it's important to me that you're still insisting that it was I; whereas I've just said I'd never say such a thing because I've never thought it. Are we running against each other for political office or something?

Pam

[george wilson]

Pam,I like you,and I regret mentioning what I THINK you said. You have done 500 posts,and the search function only gives the first several words,not the whole post,unless I'm doing it wrong. I'm new to computers.

I did not insist it was you. I just said I was pretty sure. however,I am pushing 70,and certainly can be wrong on memory. Sorry for causing you this concern. If you say you didn't say it,that should be enough.

EDIT: O.K.,Pam.I think I found what I was referring to. Wilbur pan on 1/24/07,post # 10 said to the effect that most of the work done through the ages in Japan was done in softwoods. This is not a direct quote,but close. The post is right UNDER a post by you. since I am inclined to remember you,and not Wilbur Pan,who is always in some argument about nothing,that is what I think I remembered,but wrongly associated with you. It was,after all,3 years ago. can I come out of the corner now?

Wilbur,This IS NOT an invitation for you to start another argument.

[David Gendron]

I didn't see any argument started by Wilbur in this thread, rather I saw some information past a long to other creekers!!!

[Wilbur Pan]

Why don't you stop this endless arguing? Somehow I have gotten through life,done the work I have done,and managed to do it for a living. Can you do the work I can?

No, I can't. I have no problems admitting this.

This does not change the fact that Japanese tools can, were, and are used successfully in hardwoods.

By the way, I have never called into question your abilities as a woodworker. What I am trying to do is understand and explain how Japanese tools work, and more globally, how woodworking was done in Asia. As someone who used to work at a place where studying history was important, I would hope that you can appreciate this. This is not an issue of value judgement, or whether one method is better than another. I don't understand why you keep trying to make it so. Both western and Japanese woodworking techniques are effective, and excellent results can be gotten either way.

Pam,I like you,and I regret mentioning what I THINK you said. You have done 500 posts,and the search function only gives the first several words,not the whole post,unless I'm doing it wrong. I'm new to computers.

I did not insist it was you. I just said I was pretty sure. however,I am pushing 70,and certainly can be wrong on memory. Sorry for causing you this concern. If you say you didn't say it,that should be enough.

EDIT: O.K.,Pam.I think I found what I was referring to. Wilbur pan on 1/24/07,post # 10 said to the effect that most of the work done through the ages in Japan was done in softwoods. This is not a direct quote,but close. The post is right UNDER a post by you. since I am inclined to remember you,and not Wilbur Pan,who is always in some argument about nothing,that is what I think I remembered,but wrongly associated with you. It was,after all,3 years ago. can I come out of the corner now?

Wilbur,This IS NOT an invitation for you to start another argument.

I don't know what you expect me to do if you are going to bring up my name, or something that I had posted in the past, or make personal comments like "Wilbur Pan,who is always in some argument about nothing".

If anyone is interested in the post that was quoted, it's located here, so it can be read in context. At the time I was thinking more in terms of buildings, and again that does not change the fact that Japanese tools can, were, and are used successfully in hardwoods.

[David Gendron]

George, every body here told you that you are/were a great woodworker with outstanding tallents. But please be respectful of other people knowledge and way of doing things! Some might say of my self that I'm crazy, or it shouldn't be done that way of doing every thing with out power tools, but it is my choice and I assume it! I think here, Wilbur is kind anought to pass his knowledge on japanese tools and techniques to others, that we don't need anybody to tell him it's not the way it should be! And I would love to know how many time have you work with japanese tools?
I'm here to learn stuff, and like any thing else, you take what you like and live the rest! you don't have to post comment on a thread if you don't like or if you are not interested in the subject!

[Richard Jones]

.......just like a kitchen knife to cut meat you don't want it too sharp or it takes more effort to cut......... a kitchen knife sharpened to say 1000 grit will cut meat with less effort then one sharpened to 8000 grit.

I will respectfully disagree with this. Any of my kitchen knives, all Japanese (OK, OK, there are some Forschners hidden about, maybe 1 Henckels, but they rarely see the light of day and are reserved for chopping frozen stuff and when the relatives come over and want to cut something), some stainless, some carbon, will cut meat (and anything else, for that matter) with less effort with a more refined edge. That edge is normally finished with either a 10K Naniwa or Chosera and/or a Cr02/diamond strop. IMO there's really no use in taking a Forschner to 10k. If you want to say some steels seem to cut better with some tooth, I would agree with that to a point. I'm not a chef, but I talk with a lot of them, and all advocate more than 1K to finish an edge, at least the serious ones that use J-knives. If I handed you two identical knives, one finished to 1K and the other to 8K, I guarantee you the 8K would out cut the 1K. Could I ask how you arrived at this statement?

I can't speak to the razor analogy, I shave with a Mühle R89 and Iridiums.....

To keep on thread, I cannot duplicate a smooth matte finish with anything I own nor would I want to. It goes against all that I believe to make up a great edge and for me, just defies physics.

Rich

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam,I like you,and I regret mentioning what I THINK you said. You have done 500 posts,and the search function only gives the first several words,not the whole post,unless I'm doing it wrong. I'm new to computers.

I did not insist it was you. I just said I was pretty sure. however,I am pushing 70,and certainly can be wrong on memory. Sorry for causing you this concern. If you say you didn't say it,that should be enough.

EDIT: O.K.,Pam.I think I found what I was referring to. Wilbur pan on 1/24/07,post # 10 said to the effect that most of the work done through the ages in Japan was done in softwoods. This is not a direct quote,but close. The post is right UNDER a post by you. since I am inclined to remember you,and not Wilbur Pan,who is always in some argument about nothing,that is what I think I remembered,but wrongly associated with you. It was,after all,3 years ago. can I come out of the corner now?

Wilbur,This IS NOT an invitation for you to start another argument.

OK, George, I like you and have a lot of respect for your skills and results; so here's an exact copy of my post:

Pam Niedermayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry strasil
...
The Japanese Wood Workers have very elaborate Joints which are extremely strong but they get overly complicated just for the sake of the Visual Beauty of the joint and to show off their Skill at Woodworking.
...
Nice joint, Harry, but I have to disagree about Japanese woodworkers. The ones I know are incredibly modest and never show joinery if they can avoid it. They do their best to hide it. For example, you never see them expose dovetails, they're all hidden.

Clearly I was saying nothing, absolutely nothing, about soft/hard woods. So let's lay this to rest. In the following post Wilbur did say most Japanese woodworking through history was done with softwoods, and I'd expect him to know that; but I don't. And I use Japanese tools with soft and hard woods with no ill effect. I did have broken tooth problems with the very first two Japanese saws I used, but that was due to bad technique as I was learning, and in fact one of those problems occurred while sawing pine.

I don't find Wilbur argumentative over small issues. Granted, we technical types (Wilbur's a doctor, I was a software developer in a previous life) are often accused of being argumentative, but I see this trait as simply wanting to discuss issues in depth with precision. I do enjoy the mental gyrations of a good argument, but this is difficult to carry off in an online forum; so I've been beaten down into submission. In short, you won't see my best work online in woodworking groups.

Pam

[george wilson]

David,I am just tired out with Wilbur keeping on forever and ever abut something that is of little importance. Shiny edge vs. matte edge. GET SOME WORK DONE. He did not need to again bring up the same issue about softwoods. I have already said that I THOUGHT she said it. It's been 3 years,after all,and my old head can't keep every little shred of every posting in it. Can yours?

No,he's just GOT to keep on attacking. Frankly,I don't think he's been too polite.

I didn't join this forum to debate endlessly about how to sharpen a chisel. I know how to sharpen mine. What works for you guys is fine. Bury it,O.K.?

When I was a dirt poor kid,I had a fifty cent chisel.The kind stamped out of flat steel,bolster and all. I had an old,gray hardware store stone. I sharpened the chisel on that stone,and spent a LONG time stropping it on a piece of plain paper. I got it sharp enough to shave by sheer tenacity. That worked for me at that time.

I'm not going to keep this argument up. It isn't even an argument. I just don't care how he sharpens his tools.

I do encourage him to learn how to make a proper chisel rack,though. That method of laying his chisels horizontally between 2 short dowels is an accident waiting to happen to one of his fine matte edges.

[Mark Bergman]

George -

Perhaps since you "didn't join this forum to debate endlessly about how to sharpen a chisel", it might be useful for us all for you to explain why you did join this forum, as well as provide a list of topics that you deem worthy of discussion so that we won't be wasting our time, and more importantly, your time, in the future.

[dan sherman]

David,I am just tired out with Wilbur keeping on forever and ever abut something that is of little importance. Shiny edge vs. matte edge. GET SOME WORK DONE.

In your opinion it's of little importance, maybe jut maybe other people see it differently.

I didn't join this forum to debate endlessly about how to sharpen a chisel. I know how to sharpen mine. What works for you guys is fine. Bury it,O.K.?

Who are you to decide what should or should not be discussed?

I do encourage him to learn how to make a proper chisel rack,though. That method of laying his chisels horizontally between 2 short dowels is an accident waiting to happen to one of his fine matte edges.

Again this is your opinion.