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Thread: Sharp tools with matte finishes

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Why don't you stop this endless arguing? Somehow I have gotten through life,done the work I have done,and managed to do it for a living. Can you do the work I can? It took very sharp tools to do it. I don't care about your endless discussions which amount to how many angels can dance on a pin head.

    Sorry if I sound arrogant. It isn't bragging if you can do it. With what I have accomplished,it is silly to keep up these endless discussions with an amateur. If your tools are sharp enough to make you happy,use them.



    I get my Western tools sharp enough to do my work. There are many ways to sharpen a chisel. So what? Skill is the main component in any case,not some magical,highly overpriced stone.
    Amen to that. I wish all it took was a sharp edge to do fine work. Unfortunately, talent, skill, perseverance and just plain wanting to do woodworking, not perpetually setting up shop, must take over.
    Last edited by Steve Dallas; 03-18-2010 at 11:36 AM.

  2. #62
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    No,laying a chisel among others between 2 short pegs is very apt to cause the chisel to fall when it is reached for without due care. That isn't wise. Not just my opinion.

    It is my opinion that I don't care for Japanese tools. Nor do I care to eat rice and raw fish,or to sit on the floor,holding the work between my toes. I certainly cannot even think about pulling a plane with the back trouble I have. If you prefer to do these things it's your prerogative.
    Last edited by george wilson; 03-18-2010 at 11:29 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    David,I am just tired out with Wilbur keeping on forever and ever abut something that is of little importance. Shiny edge vs. matte edge. GET SOME WORK DONE. He did not need to again bring up the same issue about softwoods. I have already said that I THOUGHT she said it. It's been 3 years,after all,and my old head can't keep every little shred of every posting in it. Can yours?

    No,he's just GOT to keep on attacking. Frankly,I don't think he's been too polite.

    I didn't join this forum to debate endlessly about how to sharpen a chisel. I know how to sharpen mine. What works for you guys is fine. Bury it,O.K.?

    When I was a dirt poor kid,I had a fifty cent chisel.The kind stamped out of flat steel,bolster and all. I had an old,gray hardware store stone. I sharpened the chisel on that stone,and spent a LONG time stropping it on a piece of plain paper. I got it sharp enough to shave by sheer tenacity. That worked for me at that time.

    I'm not going to keep this argument up. It isn't even an argument. I just don't care how he sharpens his tools.

    I do encourage him to learn how to make a proper chisel rack,though. That method of laying his chisels horizontally between 2 short dowels is an accident waiting to happen to one of his fine matte edges.
    George,

    Take a deep breath and just relax. We are not here to argue: if you want that, there is a forum out there where people are knotty and not nice. Let's just take a break and go sharpen our chisels.

    Best to you!

    -Jerry

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    No,laying a chisel among others between 2 short pegs is very apt to cause the chisel to fall when it is reached for without due care. That isn't wise. Not just my opinion.

    It is my opinion that I don't care for Japanese tools. Nor do I care to eat rice and raw fish,or to sit on the floor,holding the work between my toes. I certainly cannot even think about pulling a plane with the back trouble I have. If you prefer to do these things it's your prerogative.
    Agree again. If I had to work on my knees, sitting on my patookas, or practically doubled over holding work on low benches with my feet or knees in order to pull saws or planes my woodworking 'career,' as it were, would already be over. I'm six feet five inches tall. I couldn't use Japanese tools, in the manner they are designed and meant to be used, if my life depended on it.
    Last edited by Steve Dallas; 03-18-2010 at 11:45 AM.

  5. #65
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    I WAS 6' 5",but now I'm 6' 3" from deterioration.

    Maybe If we did it from an early age! I never could sit on the floor in the"lotus" position!!

    Steve,you hit upon something very true: perpetually setting up shop. Wanting to work,but playing at it forever. Being obsessed with the romance of working. It's a real condition and in full bloom.
    Last edited by george wilson; 03-18-2010 at 11:53 AM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    I WAS 6' 5",but now I'm 6' 3" from deterioration.

    Maybe If we did it from an early age! I never could sit on the floor in the"lotus" position!!

    Steve,you hit upon something very true: perpetually setting up shop. Wanting to work,but playing at it forever. Being obsessed with the romance of working. It's a real condition and in full bloom.
    I'm proud of our Western woodworking tradition and thrilled beyond description that it requires precious little bending and stooping while doing the actual work.

    Here's a sampling of items from the English tradition: http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/dep....jsp?dept_id=8

    Watch the Tom Devinish video.

    Otherwise, I think people want to co-opt the Asian mystique and reverence for tools but they are leaving out a key ingredient and notion - Japanese temple carpenters and bench woodworkers can walk the walk too. Their tolerance is probably even lower for poseurs and dilly-dallyers than that exhibited by accomplished Western woodworkers who have more of a live and let live approach to things. Talking and droning on about tools without being able to actually do much of anything with them is a blasphemous sacrilege to skilled Asian artisans.
    Last edited by Steve Dallas; 03-18-2010 at 12:57 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    David,I am just tired out with Wilbur keeping on forever and ever abut something that is of little importance. Shiny edge vs. matte edge. GET SOME WORK DONE. He did not need to again bring up the same issue about softwoods.

    I do encourage him to learn how to make a proper chisel rack,though. That method of laying his chisels horizontally between 2 short dowels is an accident waiting to happen to one of his fine matte edges.
    Thanks for the concern. Those dowels are actually angled up about 5 degrees, so they make a nice crook for the chisel to rest in, and is more secure than it may seem at first glance. I made this rack since it seemed to be the historically accurate thing to do, based on a picture that I had seen in Toshio Odate's book on Japanese tools, and has been working well so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Steve,you hit upon something very true: perpetually setting up shop. Wanting to work,but playing at it forever. Being obsessed with the romance of working. It's a real condition and in full bloom.
    Again, I don't know why you keep up with the personal comments.

    By the way, it was you who brought up the issue with softwoods in this thread, which is why I addressed it:

    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    A lot of sharpening is skill. You should strop in different directions to keep smooth mountains from building up. Technique MUST be considered,not just what you use to get a tool sharp. It also depends upon what wood you are working. Aren't Japanese tools designed primarily for soft wood use? I never liked Japanese type tools,so never use them.
    Last edited by Wilbur Pan; 03-18-2010 at 12:23 PM.

  8. #68
    George,

    Bragging and arrogance are just that, regardless of talent or ability. It's all about attitude...

    I'm sure you'd easily be voted most talented participant here (you'd definitely have my vote). Can't that be enough?

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Benton View Post
    George,

    Bragging and arrogance are just that, regardless of talent or ability. It's all about attitude...

    I'm sure you'd easily be voted most talented participant here (you'd definitely have my vote). Can't that be enough?
    You should consider reading an old article by Toshio Odate in Fine Woodworking (black and white era) in which he recounts having a tool he'd bought confiscated by his "master" and never returned because he was not skilled enough to own such a fine tool. Arrogant? Nope. The master was keeping the apprentice from totally embarrassing himself - from committing a cultural faux pas at the least. Odate acknowledges in the article that the master had done the right thing. George, by saying in effect, 'hush already, you guys couldn't chisel your way out of a wet paper bag' is trying to do the same thing. People discussing the absolute minutest of minutiae who most likely are unable to wield the instrument being discussed with enough skill to make their opinion even matter in the real world of actual, as opposed to virtual, woodworking.

    George's comments are not haughty in the least and since this thread is more than tangentially about Asian tools and methods of work the Toshio Odate story is applicable and instructive.

    People invoke the Japanese craft tradition apparently when it suits them. Well, there's a pecking order in that tradition. As well there should be.

    Listen to George.
    Last edited by Steve Dallas; 03-18-2010 at 3:29 PM.

  10. #70
    I don't live in Japan, and am neither a master or apprentice. I'm just another guy giving and receiving (mostly the latter) information on a web forum.

    My comment had more to do with a personal pet peeve and less about the topic at hand, and for that I apologize...

    fyi, I hold George's opinions in the highest regard.
    Last edited by Matt Benton; 03-18-2010 at 1:07 PM.

  11. #71
    How is it, this thread got contorted into a discussion on east vs. west?

    I think the original post was pretty clear, let me paraphrase:
    A mirror polish does not necessarily indicate a flat/sharp edge.
    -Dan

  12. #72
    "It's not bragging if you can back it up."

    ---Dizzy Dean

    George can back it up.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by dan sherman View Post
    How is it, this thread got contorted into a discussion on east vs. west?

    I think the original post was pretty clear, let me paraphrase:
    A mirror polish does not necessarily indicate a flat/sharp edge.
    Nope, it sure doesn't. Sandpaper dubs edges but produces the most spectacular of mirrored bevels and backs.

  14. #74
    So arrogance can only exist in the absence of talent? I call that lying...


    I don't have anything as esteemed as Dizzy Dean, but I'll give it a shot...


    "The sufficiency of my merit is to know that my merit is not sufficient."
    — St. Augustine


    "Humility is the solid foundation of all the virtues."
    — Confucious

  15. #75
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    Look,I know I am coming off badly. I just got enough of the niggling from Pan. Any of you ever get that way? If you never did,good for you.

    Steve,I appreciate your support.

    Jerry,your advice is good.

    Matt,thank you for your kind comment.

    I am sure that somehow Wilbur will chime in again to somehow still try to assert his point. I'd like to drop it.

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