Not about the chisels

[Tim Null]

David,

What I said was that theft and returns are factored into the equation. Not on a case by case or even year by year basis, but as a constant that will always be there. Does that make it right?

Theft is dealt with on the retailer level. Returns are mostly to the manufacturer, unless the store eats it and does not pass it back to the manufacturer. At the 4 store company I worked at, most returns were given credit by the manufacturer due to our large buying power. I imagine a huge chain has even more leverage.

My point was not that the costs would fluctuate due to higher or lower theft/return rates, but that they are factored in due to human nature. People will steal and be less than honest in their return practices. Companies know that and factor in those costs. Still costs you and me more for these transgressions. Still doesn't make them right.

At what point in my post did I claim to have all of the answers? I have two teenage daughters who will testify under oath that I have almost none.....LOL

If I offended you I apologize. Was not my intent. We can have a difference of opinion. You are right, my statements are my opinion. Based on my experience and education.

I took your advice. After several deep breaths, bordering upon hyperventilating....... I re-read your post. And mine. My point was that the whole issue was that the big companies already take "loss" into account, but that does not make it right to return items when there is no fault of the retailer or manufacturer.

Simply because the company will take it back does not mean it should. As you very well know, from your retail days, sometimes you do things for the customer when you know they are wrong, lying, etc. That is because negative publicity is the worst of all.

Look at all of the negative posts about less than generous return policies here. Unless a manufacturer takes anything back for any and all reasons, they are lambasted.

I totally agree to return a chisel if it is not holding an edge. Or otherwise not functioning in a satisfactory manner. But to buy a bunch of chisels and hone and sharpen them, and then return them simply due to factors that do not impact the actual performance still strikes me as not right.

Maybe it is my experience in retail, seeing abuses of returns that makes me feel this way.

Once again, did not mean to offend you or insult your intelligence or experience. If you ever hit the West Coast I would buy you a beer and listen to a few retail stories.

[David DeCristoforo]

Interesting question. What if I bought one chisel, decided I did not like it and sent it back? No issue there, right? Then I bought a second one, did not like that one either and sent it back also. Still good? Then I got lucky on the third one and kept it. Now the vendor has had to do all the paperwork and soak the cost of shipping several times instead of just once. So is that better for them? And I have had to deal with waiting for shipments three times instead of just once and had to make sure that my money was refunded properly, etc. So it has taken me a pretty long time to get a chisel I liked. I am not trying to condone the idea of doing something like buying a tool, using it for a specific task and then sending it back and demanding a refund. Obviously that would be at least unethical. I'm just head scratching a bit because the original scenario could be seen as simply a more efficient way to go. There is a thread discussing the quality of Great Lakes castors. What if you read that and were left wondering if you should buy the GL house brand or the more expensive "Footmaster" brand. How are you to know until you get the product in your hand if it is going to be what you were led to expect?

[Randall Clark]

When you go to Home De-Lowe's or call a mail order woodworking supply, before you purchase, try telling them exactly what you have planned.

"I want to buy three chisels, and I want you to understand my plans before I buy/order them: I am going to use all three and return all but the one I like the best expecting a full refund."

What would they say?

Buy three, use three, return three? I couldn't do it unless there was a defect that made the chisel unusable.

[Gary Breckenridge]

I thought I knew all the woodworking magazines. Where can I sign up for a subscription to Weasel Woodworking ?

[dennis thompson]

To put it in woodworking terms Randall hit the nail right on the head
Dennis

[John Coloccia]

So everyone here buys the first car they take for a test drive at the dealership because they've wasted the salesman's time otherwise? Bah. That's part of their business model, and so is this. Allowing liberal returns like this makes them money, not the other way around.

We're not talking about abusing the product and then returning it. We're not talking about using the product on three projects and then returning it.

But someone else had a good idea (though they were being sarcastic, not serious): if you feel uncomfortable doing this, just ASK them if they mind. For example, I've bought 3 guitar amplifiers at the same time so that I could take them home for a few days, and play them with all my equipment and guitars, for extended periods of time, and then returned two. Wasn't my idea. It was THEIR idea.

Seriously...just ask them, and put all this righteous indignation to bed, and then report back what they say.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Seriously...just ask them, and put all this righteous indignation to bed..."

Bingo

[Vince Shriver]

A woman bought a dress from an upscale store, then three days later returned it for a refund (to which the store acquiesced). The store then resold the dress which was returned yet again with a complaint that it was the source of a skin rash. Upon some investigation, it was found that the first sale went to a woman who used the garment for her mother who was the guest of honor at a funeral visitation. Ya just never know.

[Joe Leigh]

The price of a tool will not go down with or without theft. Compare it to what you will, but the store needs to make x amount of dollars off of a product to make a profit. Theft, aka shrinkage is already factored in and always will be.

Not to single out your post David, as there are several similar ones, but just as an illustration to my question;
What does the store's bottom line have to do with right and wrong? A wrong becomes right if we can rationalize it on the ledger sheet?.
The INTENT, as portrayed in the original post, is dishonest and deceitful. That makes the doer dishonorable. No wiggle room.

[Van Huskey]

Simple to me, follow the return policy of the manufacturer and/or vendor. People recommend buying Festool all the time due to their use it/return it policy. If you use the policy correctly then there is NOTHING wrong with returning the item. In the end I personally would buy one at a time until I was happy, again tacking advantage of the return policy but no attempt to abuse it.

[Neil Brooks]

The INTENT, as portrayed in the original post, is dishonest and deceitful. That makes the doer dishonorable. No wiggle room.

I'm a big believer that clarity on definitions helps to facilitate clear dialogue.

So ... in that spirit ... I offer this.

[Nathan Callender]

So, would anyone order 3 chisels, grind and sharp them to see how well they take an edge (obviously, a very important feature in a chisel) and then return the ones you did not like? Or how about buying a dovetail saw and taking out any set in the teeth?

I don't see the problem in ordering a bunch of stuff and evaluating in person and shipping back the items you don't like, but once you use it, it's yours unless it's defective. Now, if it's a tool that isn't effected during use, and the vendor doesn't mind the testing (like festool), that's different.

[Bill Pitz]

I bought six brand new Empire squares at HD the other morning, and returned the five that weren't square. I returned them in exactly the condition in which I bought them, the store can resell them at full price. Had the label said 'Empire Premium Aluminum UnSquare', I might have felt compelled to keep them.

[Dave Sharpe]

I agree that buying tools intending to return them is unethical (Can anyone tell me the difference between unethical and immoral?). Even if a company's policy allows such behavior, it still adds to the cost that all of us have to pay.

Along these lines, I once attended a Christening/Baptism of two toddlers who were to be Christened in an outdoor ceremony wearing brand new pristine white suits. These suits were so white it hurt the eyes to look at them! The mother instructed her friend who was charged with dressing the kids to only put these suits on just prior to the ceremony and "Don't let them get a speck on them - We're returning the suits tomorrow!" I've always wondered if that somehow negates the whole concept of the Christening......

[Michael O'Sullivan]

I agree that buying tools intending to return them is unethical (Can anyone tell me the difference between unethical and immoral?). Even if a company's policy allows such behavior, it still adds to the cost that all of us have to pay.

Along these lines, I once attended a Christening/Baptism of two toddlers who were to be Christened in an outdoor ceremony wearing brand new pristine white suits. These suits were so white it hurt the eyes to look at them! The mother instructed her friend who was charged with dressing the kids to only put these suits on just prior to the ceremony and "Don't let them get a speck on them - We're returning the suits tomorrow!" I've always wondered if that somehow negates the whole concept of the Christening......

The point that a lot of the people are missing is that the hypothetical chisel purchaser is giving each of the three a fair shot to be chosen -- it is unknown going in which two are going to be returned. To me, that is very different from buying a tool for a 1-off project, using it for that project, and then returning it. In that case (or the special occasion clothes) the chance of return is 100%.

Also, remember that many of the high-end manufacturers we are talking about maintain very low "brick and mortar" retail presences. This saves them a tremendous amount of money. If they had B&M stores, you could go in and test one of the chisels out. However, since they do not, it seems a bit unfair to require people to make their decisions sight unseen.

Regarding the books, it is more like the difference between going to Borders, flipping through three books on, say, building kitchen cabinets, and then buying the one you like. I don't see the difference between doing that and ordering the same three books from Amazon, browsing each of them , and sending one or two (or all three, for that matter) back. In fact, the least ethical move, IMO, is to flip through the book at Borders, and then buy it on-line for a cheaper price.