What does it take for a great project?

[Mark Singer]

The focus of SMC is very often which saw to use or which system is better to cut a straight line....which sander leaves the least sawdust....maybe which plane chatters the least. All of these are certainly interesting and valid subjects for a great woodworkers forum. Do these subjects and many others really change the final look of our projects....? The answer is no. If I cut the walnut with a Powermatic or a Jet..it probably won't change much if anything in the final appearance of the project! If I sand it with a Festool or a Bosch, or Dewalt it will probably be just as smooth. To improve a project we need to think deeply about design. Are we limited to just using wood as the only medium? Must a table have 4 legs? What if it had one leg that was metal and it was cast into a concrete base and then covered with gravel...like a flagpole supporting the table...for a patio. About a`week ago I posted "Leave it like it is" in the design forum.....it recieved few posts and several were response from me. As unpopular as it was it is still only on post from the top in the "Design Forum"...the point is no one seems to care much about what something ends up looking like as long as the shavings that fell from their Lie Neilsen Plane were fine and translucent....The shavings end up in the trash....eventually after we fondle them admiring our amazing skill.
We actually end up arguing about which tool is the best for a certain task...what is the point? If we spent a little more time with a blank piece of paper and fresh thoughts about how the next project is to be used,,,what does the the table design need to have to make it really different and still work in concert with the living room? Can I have someone make metal legs.? what about inserting a glass center...if the glass is opague it could be lit from the bottom!
This sort of thinking can make a meaningful difference in the final result. If we put our effort into someting really great and original...we could still have great shavings...speaking of shaving...whose idea was it to put 3 blades in one razor anyway? A creative designer!
This post may not get much response either...it was nice to see that many people knew David Wilcox...even if the concept of the thread was not important. Maybe I am to critical. What is really the difference between your favorite car and one you can't stand ? Probably not the steel or the machines that made it....design, ah yes that may have had something to do with it.

[Allen Grimes]

Actually Mark, I spend more time on design than anything else. It is very important to me that whatever I make is my own. I buy all kinds of WW magazines and not once attempted to make what was in it because It's just not the same to me. What I do take from them though is the techniques. The whole reason I got into WW is because I wanted very specific stuff that I couldn't find anywhere. So I figured the only way I would get exactly what I want is to do it myself. But I also don't knock anybody for not being original. Some people are satisfied with just building the stuff and even if its somebody else's plan/idea, they are happy with it. And in the end, if somebody is happy, why take their happiness away?

[Jamie Buxton]

Mark --
Like you, I find design much more interesting than tools or techniques. Design is where creativity happens. Design is what distinguishes (I hope) my furniture from everybody else's. You're right that design receives much less attention in online forums. One reason is that design and esthetics are darn difficult to discuss in this medium of short text-based messages. If you and I were talking face-to-face-to-sketchpad, we could more easily talk about why a line should be this instead of that, or why it was important to the overall design. Heck, even if we were face-to-face, I might not be able to explain my design development to you; some times it just happens. So we discuss what we can online -- tools.

Jamie

[Jamie Buxton]

speaking of shaving...whose idea was it to put 3 blades in one razor anyway? A creative designer!

Well, as a professional skeptic, I'd guess that it was not a creative designer, but one of those blasted marketeers. "Gee, if one blade is good, we'll give 'em two! Surely that will get more shelf space at the supermarket!" ... "And if two is selling, we'll give 'em three!" These are the same people who sell you coffee sizes that start at Grande, and cars with engines which will never be used to their full capacity. Do four blades work any better than one? Who knows? It doesn't matter.

Jamie

[Mark Singer]

Jamie,

You probably would not believe I shave once in a while....but I do. The Mach 3 is an amazing razor...smooth , close no cuts and it seems to last forever! It beats the straight razor of years ago and less threatening...3 blades do seem to be more than a marketing scheme...
I saw your post on the rocker's...a few people said" they looked like Maloof "and others said "they are common ...a lot are being made that look like that"...if someone is going to take the time to make a rocker...why not make it original...I guess it doesn't matter.

Well, as a professional skeptic, I'd guess that it was not a creative designer, but one of those blasted marketeers. "Gee, if one blade is good, we'll give 'em two! Surely that will get more shelf space at the supermarket!" ... "And if two is selling, we'll give 'em three!" These are the same people who sell you coffee sizes that start at Grande, and cars with engines which will never be used to their full capacity. Do four blades work any better than one? Who knows? It doesn't matter.

Jamie

[Norman Hitt]

Mark, I have to agree with Jamie about why it is hard to discuss design to any degree on the forum, because the visualization of each individual differs so much. I wish I still had the drawing of an old cartoon I saw that had three sketches. The first was titled "What the Customer Ordered", the second was, "What the Engineer Designed", the third was, "What the Contractor built", and needless to say, NONE were even close to the same.

I've noticed that oft times, when someone posts asking for help on a project and then tries to explain what they have and what they are trying to do, they can't even convey a good enough description for others to visualize the project/problem well enough to be able to give them help.

[Allen Grimes]

First of all, I use the Mach 3 as well, and you really can tell the difference, but Im not so sure its the 3 blades alone, that make it so much smoother.

Anyway, I think another reason why not so many people design there own furntiture is because its so time consuming and some people would rather be in their shop than planning to. And I for one would not ask for any advice on a design because that would taint it. How many times do you think Salvadore Dali asked for advice on one of his paintings? I doubt he ever did. I doubt anybody ever even knew what he was doing, until it was done. Art comes from your soul. Anybody can be taught to rhyme, but that wont make you a poet. Woodworking is the same. That plus the fact that not everybody does it for the same reason.

I used to show people my designs before I finished them but then they'd tell me how I could change it. I'm so anal about my designs being mine that I would scrap them and start something new.

[Gary Max]

When did they start makeing razors with more than one blade?????
Oh never mind.
When I am not building our standard product line-----I build what I want to.
Design----to funny---I have built and sold items that I still ain't figured out what to call them. Most of the time this is caused by jumping in a pile of cut-offs---misc outs-- and scraps and coming out with a product.
Price it and move on to the next project.
I have a small showroom/barn here that is loaded with stuff that is different. A item may sit there for years before the right person sees it.
So the very different---one of a kind---gee whats that---is a very inportant part of what I build. If for no other reason than the fact that I enjoy building them.
So I guess I agree with Mark---go build something no one has ever seem before.

[John Miliunas]

Mark, on my behalf, I find this thread a bit of a bummer. Oh NO, NOT because of the concept or thoughts behind the thread but, more so, because yours truly has a real hard time "thinking out of the box" and drawing! I can't hardly draw a straight line w/o the aid of a ruler. (Before you say it, I need the compass to draw a circle, too! ) I find that my "creative" side comes out more, once I put tools to the media I'm using. For instance, the trim around that recent display case. The inlay on that originated smack dab in the middle of the board. Mocked up a corner and it was OK, but after looking at it for a while, I said to myself, "Self, why not try it off-center?" Once I set that up on the TS, I looked again and decided to go WAY off-center! It was only then that I said, "Hey, that should look OK!" I wish I could easier put ideas to paper, so that I could easier see what I'm visualizing in my head. I'm not one of those people who can just sit down and start dreaming something up. It has to "come to me", usually when I'm thinking of something completely different! More often than not, though, I spend too much time doing some sort of mock-up and only then saying, "Hey, that looks like crap!" Or, so often, my "design elements" don't even originate until the project takes hold and is already WIP! Then sadly, there are those times where I would like to incorporate some other media, but alas, the funds just don't allow for the customization(s) I would prefer.

By and large, I completely agree with what you're trying to convey in your message. I only wish I possessed the skills and creativity to do better designs and planning ahead. Who knows?...Maybe one of these years, the spirit of one of our past or present Masters will partially trickle down to me. Now THAT would be neat!

[Donnie Raines]

To me, it starts with a vision of what I would like to see as the end product. I rarely draw any thing out.....just the way I am. Once I take the steps to select the lumber for my project, I make any modifactions in mind at that time....and this often happens. I may visualize the item to have starigth grain for the front panels(or whatever....) then find a board or two that has some very neat swirly grain that I want to incorparate.....maybe I will then book match this board. I really just let it flow as I go.

Without wanting to sound conceded.....but once you do this for a little while things just kinda happen....they flow with out a lot of effort. Rather then worrying about chip out or burn marks and all the other goofy stuff that can occur during a project. you become wraped up in the project. You enjoy the steps it takes to accomplish your goal. No longer do I get impatient to finish a project...when I did the project would have some flaws that I could have prevented had I just step back and took a break. I will work an area at a time until it is the way I want it. Then I move on......

[Dave Brandt]

I with John on this. I can't draw a good stick figure. Most of the customization on my projects is a direct result of a mistake I made somewhere along the line. I'd love to be able to design on paper, but I'm afraid it's not the way my brain is wired. I'll have to stay satisfied with my "customizations", at least the ones that work out OK, and knowing that I was able to follow the plans correctly! It's probably why I don't subscribe to Fine Woodworking anymore, to frustrating to look at the wonderful projects knowing that I'd never be able to produce something so inspiring without the help of a well laid out plan.

Besides, this is the power tool forum!

[Carl Eyman]

I bet I don't get general agreement on this thought, but I think it is true. The vast majority of things designed on any given day do not survive the test of time. Much of what is designed is deliberately planned to be obsolete almost immediately. This year's crop of auto models, for instance. In furniture this year's "modern" stye will probably be on the junk pile in a year or so. One year glass and chrome is the big attraction, next year it is something else that won't survive. Where have art deco, modernistic, gone? I have a book summarizing the issues of Popular Mexhanics over some 75 years. They were great on trying to predict what the auto, plane, boat, etc. would look like in the future. I don't think they got one right.

Hence, I say the chances of any one design that comes off the board today of enduring is about that of a snowball in hell.

That is why I'm a period furniture guy. I know these designs have endured and have every reason to suspect they will continue to do so.

Thanks, Mark, for posting this thread. One of my most cherished friends was an industrial designer. He and I argued this point endlessly. It feels good to do so again even though I can't do so with him.

[Shelley Bolster]

Mark - what a terrific thread. It's really refreshing to look into the minds (as in how they tackle the design of a project) of woodworkers and not just at their pocket books (as in how many tools they can possess). Not that I don't read, enjoy and rely on others' tool experiences and opinions but on more than one occasion, I have wondered "were did the woodworking go?" While lurking on another forum a few years ago, a pro who had a "high-end" shop wrote that, on more than one occasion, other woodworkers remarked "that if they had his arsenal of tools, they too could produce fine furniture." He said he now replies to those remarks with something like "and if I had a good set of scalpels - I could preform brain surgery".
John, you took the words right out of my mouth. I'm afraid the side of my brain that produces artistic talent, never developed. So, I find myself concentrating more towards function than form - strength and not style. I am in awe of those who have the ability and talent to join the two worlds together.
Shelley

[Mike Cutler]

Mark. I for one find your ideas for design, and the incorporation of mixed materials to be phenomonal. You bring to the table a design style that may be somewhat esoteric in nature, but none the less thought provoking and challenging. Your use of linear and nonlinear lines gives me ideas that I possibly wouldn't have considered. I admit to being somewhat inhibited to use alternative materials, out of the fear that the final result will look like some WalMart special, this is my own limitation.
For me the ends justifies the means when it comes to projects. I'll use whatever technique or tool I need to get the final result. The wood doesn't know or care if it's being cut with this blade or that one, or this bit or that bit. I have to say that just about everything I do, the final shapes and contours come from rasps, files and sandpaper.
I also find that there are certain design styles and techniques involved in wood working that I can't stand. I don't like to see exposed joinery just for the sake of displaying the joint. And I find that leaving that thin marking line on a row of exposed dovetails to be, not a hallmark or proof of hand done joinery and quality, but sloppy. It doesn't need to be left there.
You have a very good point that we to often become mired down in the "best tool" discussions, but these can be fun and there is knowledge to be passed along.
Don't get bummed out by thinking that people aren't listening or learning, they are. I am currently making a large "shelving system" for the room in our house that we call a library. It involves linear vertical lines and non-linear horizontal lines. The depths of the shelves are non traditional, and non consistent, and the support structure has to incorporate steel pins and threaded rod for strength. The joinery has to be very exact or the project won't got together at completion. There are close to four hundred M&T joints of different types and purpose, so I did need input on some of the "best tool" available. This project is stretching my abilities quite a bit. Both technique wise and design wise. I downloaded Sketch-Up, ala Todd Burch, I looked at the furniture that you've presented us with, and I've spent a lot of time looking a Chico Sakam's work on the Wood Centeral board. Initial drawings were made and modified and full size templates had to be made. There was a hundred hours in this before the wood was even milled, and I already had the basic design inspiration from a piece by C Michael Vogt.
You have a lot to offer Mark, and not just design related. People want to expand their individual horizons, sometimes it just takes someone like yourself to show them that there is a succesful alternative path.
Definitely a little more than my .02 on the subject.
PS. for the record, I use a Mach 3 razor also

[Tyler Howell]

I know there are leaders and followers in every department. All essential to the final product. As far as who gets the most $$$ for the end result .
In my field the "engineers make it, and the technicians make it work".
Many show there creativity in set-up, and execution of a project, others best work is on paper.
I've seen many a great project killed by poor finish work and a disaster made functional by a little paint.
At this stage I'm happy just to get my corners to line up. Maybe someday I'll be designing my own.