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Thread: Drying rough turned bowls quickly.

  1. #16
    Simple enough point. Bowls dry without trouble on their own. They dry more rapidly in lower humidity conditions whether or not they are soaked, soused, boiled or chanted over. So, is any intervention necessary? Probably not. I can cite the sources on evaporative loss rate from end grain if you doubt the physical evidence provided by end checks on sound logs or boards.

    You acknowledge a warm and dehumidified environment, and failures, yet draw the conclusion that your alcohol soak makes them dry more rapidly and crack less. One can only ask, compared to what? Leaving a fresh piece in a warmed and dehumidified environment without controlling evaporation in a paper bag? I'd say the bag would definitely help with cracks, given your conditions. I place my spun-out turnings in open air until surface dry, then put them in a sheltered place to relax. If I want them right away, I increase the evaporative rate by placing them in an area of lower relative humidity. I am not heated/cooled or dehumidified, so they are at no time under the stress you would put them under without the paper. It is also a method followed many turners for years and years. I know I didn't originate it.

    I'm sure you're satisfied with the results of your efforts. I'm satisfied with the similar results of my neglect. The reference to the halo effect was a reminder that we all must be aware of the natural desire to succeed which can color the results of our own experimentation. Absent any scientific reason why this would work any better because of evaporative loss versus centrifugal loss of unbound water, I'm inclined to pass it by. Same with dish detergent, freezing, and boiling/microwaving, which may have some merit, because we know steamed wood is more plastic.

  2. #17
    I went to three different box stores today and received pretty much the same story that our Methyl Hydrate is the same as wood alchol and is used a lot in the paint industry as a thinner, we used to use it on the farm to start tractors when it was really cold and it is also used in lamps of some sort. On the gallon jugs I looked at there were no Ingredients per say to tell me what the percentages are but I am going to assume we are talking about the same product as there isn't anything else other than rubbing alchol available in our stores.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by George Tokarev
    Simple enough point. Bowls dry without trouble on their own. They dry more rapidly in lower humidity conditions whether or not they are soaked, soused, boiled or chanted over. So, is any intervention necessary? Probably not. I can cite the sources on evaporative loss rate from end grain if you doubt the physical evidence provided by end checks on sound logs or boards.

    You acknowledge a warm and dehumidified environment, and failures, yet draw the conclusion that your alcohol soak makes them dry more rapidly and crack less. One can only ask, compared to what? Leaving a fresh piece in a warmed and dehumidified environment without controlling evaporation in a paper bag? I'd say the bag would definitely help with cracks, given your conditions. I place my spun-out turnings in open air until surface dry, then put them in a sheltered place to relax. If I want them right away, I increase the evaporative rate by placing them in an area of lower relative humidity. I am not heated/cooled or dehumidified, so they are at no time under the stress you would put them under without the paper. It is also a method followed many turners for years and years. I know I didn't originate it.

    I'm sure you're satisfied with the results of your efforts. I'm satisfied with the similar results of my neglect. The reference to the halo effect was a reminder that we all must be aware of the natural desire to succeed which can color the results of our own experimentation. Absent any scientific reason why this would work any better because of evaporative loss versus centrifugal loss of unbound water, I'm inclined to pass it by. Same with dish detergent, freezing, and boiling/microwaving, which may have some merit, because we know steamed wood is more plastic.
    Sure, Bowls dry on their own, but NOT without trouble as you state. I guess if you consider checks and cracks no trouble, you would be correct. I have tried all the popular drying methods, and while I am fairly new to this process Dave has perfected over the course of 3 years, the results I am seeing are FAR superior to anything I have tried so far. Some of the most recognized names in turning have been testing this process for over a year, and the results they have experienced have been the same as I have seen thus far. It's pretty simple George, if you don't believe this works, then don't use it. On the other hand, don't knock those that HAVE tried this method, for over a YEAR, turning MANY bowls from MANY species of wood with EXCELLENT results. No one said this was a scientific experiment, just a proven method. I'll tell ya what, you can be the one to contact the experienced turners that know this works and tell them about the Halo effect. I am sure they will be thrilled to hear from you!

  4. #19
    Well, Kevin, life's to short to worry about anecdotal "evidence" and endorsements. Just lost a two-hour battle to save one this morning, so I'll just store your method next to the others until I have reason to seek a solution for which I have no problem. When I start to have problems drying wood, alcohol will certainly take its place near the end of the queue after known good methods for treating troublesome woods - bagging and ventilating, controlling evaporative loss by occusives, and a couple other magic elixers.

    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -Dean Edell

  5. #20
    If it's "wood alcohol" which is to say methanol, it's some truly nasty stuff. Can be easily absorbed through the skin and the mucosa. Can't see why they'd even leave it on the market in any concentration. Save chemical synthesis, there's not much it does better than its friendlier brother.
    http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/M2015.htm
    http://www.veggiepower.org.uk/page202a.htm

    I'd read some standard texts on methods of controlling moisture loss and try them before I'd play with any concentration above the 3-5% normally used to denature ethanol.

  6. #21
    Join Date
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    15,332
    George,

    I'm sure we need to be a bit more thick-skinned here but the tone of your emails is a bit disconcerting as I think you can probably tell from a couple of the responses. We like to keep things as friendly as possible around here...there are some great people on here as I've had the pleasure to meet a few of them including Kevin.

    We're all for hearing about all sort of new methods of doing things but if you don't agree, that is cool, too...just don't put someone down. Dave appears to be pretty open about this method and if you find bad/poor results, I think he would like to hear about them.

    In a nutshell (bad pun intended), look at my signature. Wood is a fickle medium and just when you think you've got a hold of it, it goes and cracks or twists on you for "no apparent reason."

    Let's keep things friendly here.

    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Padilla
    George,

    Let's keep things friendly here.

    Certainly. We are told about a magic elixer which works equally on all species of wood without regard to pore structure, density,tyloses, resin, heart or sapwood. We are apparently to believe there are no difference between woods and they way they behave. Morover, this process is so simple and so friendly that you can soak any wood of any thickness or dimension, apparently at any dilution which the infinite miscibility of alcohol and the unknown amount of water in the unspecified volume of wood might make, and not lose the effect.

    Now, after application of this expensive elixer in this imprecise manner, you allow it to evaporate, it's magic done, and proceed to dry the wood by the second-oldest method known, controlling humidity in a paper bag. It was old when I took up turning fifteen and more years ago, and is still well used today where the Relative Humidity may be low enough to create a harmful gradient between the surface and the interior of the wood. Other variations on this theme include boxing, newsprint, burying in shavings, plastic bags and application of occlusive coverings. They all work, as does neglect in a high RH environment, and all work for the same reason, without, and apparently now with, the addition of alcohol.

    http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplmisc/rpt1652.pdf Is a good read, especially the causes, nature, and prevention of end checks which can lead to structural failure and honeycombing.

    Friendly question. Do you really think there's anything of value that we don't already know and practice here? If so, can you offer anything beyond testimonials and edorsement from "name" turners, which I am, as reminded, not?

    Scientific data preferred. Meantime, I'm taking some birdseye down to the tavern for a couple of beers.

  8. #23
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Tokarev
    Friendly question. Do you really think there's anything of value that we don't already know and practice here? If so, can you offer anything beyond testimonials and edorsement from "name" turners, which I am, as reminded, not?
    George,

    If you are referring specifically to this "alcohol drying" treatment, I have no clue but that wasn't the point of my post as I am sure you know. I am not a turner in the least.

    However, I guess I am not so close-minded as to think that I cannot learn things from other people. My only issue was the tone of your posts...that is all.
    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    Bucks County PA
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    646
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Padilla
    George,

    If you are referring specifically to this "alcohol drying" treatment, I have no clue but that wasn't the point of my post as I am sure you know. I am not a turner in the least.

    However, I guess I am not so close-minded as to think that I cannot learn things from other people. My only issue was the tone of your posts...that is all.
    Chris,
    Well said, my friend! I came in late on this thread and was some what taken aback by George's tone as well. I guess I'm one of those "known turners" he refers to.

    George, we're a friendly bunch here and not used to such a negative tone in posts. You're free to disagree with the technique. Your also free to conduct your own tests of it and attempt arrive at your own conclusion. It's a free country. Or at least it was last time I checked. But saying that it is not worth the time without even trying it,...well that speaks of a very closed mind. Pity.

    "Why do people who know the least, know it the loudest?"
    Dominic Greco

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Oak Harbor, Whidbey Island, WA
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    2,550
    Well George I've never used this method but I have communicated with several of the people mentioned in the original post & found them to be creditable people & I known Dave Smith personally.

    When I run into people that are so closed minded I just shake my head & walk away.
    I usually find it much easier to be wrong once in while than to try to be perfect.

    My web page has a pop up. It is a free site, just close the pop up on the right side of the screen

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    Pairieville, LA
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    It would be fairly easy to end Georges rant. Someone go and cut a log in half. Turn 2 rough bowls identically as possible. Treat one with the alcohol method and then treat the other with his preferred method boxing or paper wrapping. The first bowl to split loses or the first one dry wins. If I had a lathe working right now I would do this experiment right now to satisfy my own curiousity.

    Dave I will try your method in the future, thanks for your time and work on this. Dont let a few people who want to be the center of attention stop you( or any of us) from developing new ideas to help out wood workers.

  12. #27
    Dave. I appreciate you sharing your information here with everyone.
    I'll store it back and try it someday. I am always on the lookout for new and improved, helpful ideas.
    Steve


  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Bourgeois
    It would be fairly easy to end Georges rant. Someone go and cut a log in half. Turn 2 rough bowls identically as possible. Treat one with the alcohol method and then treat the other with his preferred method boxing or paper wrapping. The first bowl to split loses or the first one dry wins. If I had a lathe working right now I would do this experiment right now to satisfy my own curiousity.
    And that is what I am doing. I am always looking for new ideas or trying something that is off the wall because quite often it will stick. I appreciate people like Dave who dream this stuff up.

    From the same logs of Cherry (real test for the idea) Pear, Apple, Curly Maple, Yellow Birch and an Elm Burl, I made two blanks of each, three of the Cherry and Apple as there is two sealers I want to compare. I rough turned them all the same and they are all in the same room drying. I'll take notes each week and for those interested perhaps place some pictures on my website as to the results per specie. I am also logging the room temps and humidity, just for reference.

    Andy

  14. #29
    Hi Andy,

    I never kept track of the temp and humidity. I wanted a process that didn't require special conditions. The intent was for minimal cost and no major equipment. I don't know how big your bowls. But in a week a small bowl soaked in alcohol will probably be dry. If you log the weight everyday you will be amazed how fast it drops. Thanks for doing a comparison test. Now we will know if the process works in Canada.

    Dave Smith

    Canadian friends are always welcome in Longview, WA.
    "Every man is as heaven made him and sometimes a great deal worse."
    Cervantes

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    Knoxville TN.
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    It worked fine for me. I rough turned 3 box elder bowls on the 5th, 6th and 7th of this month and soaked each over night and then wrapped them in a brown paper bag. I let each one dry for 9 days. I just got done finish turning the last one today and it was dry when I turned it. Before I took each rough bowl off the chuck I marked the jaw numbers on the blank. When I chucked them back up to finish they had not move any that I could tell when I matched them back up. I have them sitting on a the rack until the finish is completely dry, about 3 days.

    The process sounded like it would work, so I tried it before I started saying anything about it. Now I can say, Thank You Dave, for a handy process that I will continue to use.
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    Dick

    No Pain-No Gain- Not!
    No Pain-Good

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