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Thread: Workbench racking vs. base length

  1. #1

    Workbench racking vs. base length

    I have a Diefenback workbench I bought a couple of years back. It really is a nice bench. No regrets. I have no current racking issues or any other issues with it for that matter, but I want to modify the base and this is what my question is about.

    Right now the base is 52' long and the top is 75.5" long (not including the extra overhang of the tail vise). The base has stretchers high and low (see pic).

    I am replacing the shoulder vise with a large Emmert pattern vise, and for the tilt adjustment and beam of the vise to clear, I would need to shorten the length of the base from 52" to 43.5" so I have some overhang at the left end for the Emmert mounting and adjustment hardware. Is this getting a little dicey from the standpoint of length of the base vs. length of the top? Do you think I might have racking issues, or does this sound like it would be ok based off of benches you folks have had?

    I could always mount the vise within the legs - not to the left of them, leaving the base the length it is now. If I did that, I would need to remove the top stretcher on the front of the bench as it would interfere with the vise. I would also need to mount the vise an inch or two closer to the middle of the bench than if I shortened the base. The problem with this scenario is that getting to the tilt adjustment handle for the Emmert would be really awkward, and the Emmert's tilt functionality would limit what I could put under that side of the bench - I was hoping to make a cabinet with drawers to fill up the space between the stretchers.

    Any input greatly appreciated.

    Thanks, Peter
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  2. #2
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    Peter,

    If you mount the Emmert between the legs, can you simply lower the top stretcher for the necessary clearance or would you have to eliminate it altogether?

    If the former, I'd probably suggest you try your Plan B first; the vise position will be essentially the same either way (within an inch or two, you said), the bench top might sit more firmly on the wider stance base, and any under bench storage you lose due to the vise's tilt function you'd lose anyway by shortening the base, no?

    You could always then cut down the base if that setup proves too awkward in use; the vise would be an inch or two to the right, but that's not the end of the world.
    Last edited by Frank Drew; 11-18-2010 at 9:51 AM.

  3. #3
    Yep, that looks like moving the base is in order. Placing the vise between the legs is a poor compromise. It would work, but access to the handles under the table would be horrible. In a short time you'd certainly regret it. The other issue with that placement is that the left side of the vise should also be really close to the left edge of the bench or past it so that you can comfortably work on pieces held in that end without hitting the bench. Think carefully about where you want the vise because you won't want to change it.

    Since you're already thinking of cabinets in the base, I would do this in steps. The first would be to simply get things up and running, which is to shorten the base so the vise can be installed and be properly functional. Since your base is bolted together, issues with racking would really have to do with the bolts. You'll probably be fine, but if there are problems I'd just move to larger bolts perhaps acme rods which aren't that expensive. At that point you'll know exactly where you are, so you can take your time with making the cabinet to fit or make a cabinet base.

  4. #4

    Shorten the base but...

    I would shorten the base to install the vise however your bench top is very thick and I believe that it will require a lot of modification to install the Emmert. I would strongly suggest that you look at the installation required to have the top of the Emmert line up with the top of your bench. It would be a very deep mortise, perhaps so deep that you will not be able to route all the way.

    Chris

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Fournier View Post
    I would shorten the base to install the vise however your bench top is very thick and I believe that it will require a lot of modification to install the Emmert. I would strongly suggest that you look at the installation required to have the top of the Emmert line up with the top of your bench. It would be a very deep mortise, perhaps so deep that you will not be able to route all the way.

    Chris
    This is exactly why he needs to think carefully about exactly where he wants the vise. It's a lot of work and will only be done once. I won't say that it can't be moved, but the top would have to be patched etc.

    If I remember correctly, the front is much thicker than the "top." Either way, removing the material isn't much of an issue if you have a saw and a chisel. A router plane is great for trueing up the surfaces for the hinge mount as well. Using a corded router in a deep cut can lead to problems of control, just be ready for it if that's what you use.

    The vise will be used more than anything else on the bench, it should be in the perfect location for the work that you do.

  6. #6
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    I had a similar bench,same make at work. I do not advise shortening the base.

    Yes,the front edge is a LOT thicker than the actual top,which is more like 2" thick.

    Not sure how you could move the base due to the tail vise being there.

    I'd BE CAREFUL that you don't find with the base moved over,that too much weight is placed on the Emmert end,and the bench nearly tips up on edge without much urging.

    The top is just held in place by a few dowels,as you know,you can just pick the top off.

    Do be very careful that you don't end up ruining your bench.

  7. #7
    Thanks for the input. Yes the front edge of the Top is very deep but the actual body of the top is only about 2" thick so it shouldn't be too drastic to make the Emmert fit. There is certainly no going back though..

    Question: Should the edge of the Emmert be flush with the left edge of the bench? Pros/Cons? I was figuring insetting it by about an inch...

    One thing I could do is shift the whole base over about 3" to the right. I would have to make a mortise in the upper sled part of the base on the right side to allow for the bench dog to pass through. I would still have to shorten the base but not as much.

    As far as moving the top stretcher down. That's a non-starter. I'd have to move it down about 12" which would block off use of the lower shelf.

    Regards, Peter

  8. #8
    Is there a chance that you have the space to put the emmert on a different bench? I've never used an emmert, so I can't really identify the virtues above and beyond the ability to move work around on it or put irregular objects in it, but if that's the case, and use of the vise for things the front vise can't do doesn't have anything to do with using the top of the bench, maybe an old cheap, squat, and very heavy bench built for the emmert would work (does that run-on make sense?). like a stubby machinists bench or something.

    I'd hate to ruin a bench like that. I'd love to have one of those benches as it is, but I haven't run across any such thing used, and I have no interest in building a bench.

    No one rule in woodworking, no matter the topic (shaping something, changing design, modifying something, .. etc) - make sure that whatever you do, you're sure that it doesn't make things worse than they were before you did it.

  9. #9
    The whole point of getting the Emmert was to put it on this bench. I build guitars and the shoulder vise just isn't that useful compared to what I could do with the Emmert. I already have a small junky/repaired Emmert (anyone have cheap parts for a #2 turtleback?) on another cheap workbench that I built, so I know what the vise will do and that it will suit my needs. I just need to figure the details of how to put it on the Diefenbach bench in a very well thought out way.

    Peter
    Last edited by Peter Zwinakis; 11-18-2010 at 11:56 AM.

  10. #10
    George is right about checking the balance of the top. The Emmert #1 size is pretty heavy and a 2" top doesn't have all that much beef. I'd do a "test" by sliding the top over and laying the vise on top of it (with some cardboard under it to protect the top), and see how it changes the balance. Might have to be ready to catch the vise at that point as well. Use your judgement and do it carefully and you'll have the answer you need - could just lay the top on some 2x4s on the ground, then nothing will fall.

    As for the distance from the end, it all depends on how you use it. Sometimes I use that end for sawing, which means it really has to be up to or past the end of the bench. For shaping some parts I stand on the left side of the bench, I could even be facing the back side of the vise for some work, so access from the bench side of the workpiece is important for me. It may not important for you. Since you have a similar vise on another bench I'd use that to go through the kinds of operations you do and see if the relationship to the end of the bench makes any difference at all for you.

  11. #11
    I am not worried about the bench tipping in any way. The bench is heavy enough and the Emmert will only be cantilevered 3-1/2" from the edge of the left leg to the centerline of the vise. The tipping force it can impart to the bench is pretty minor. The bench-top is also bolted to the base. Not worried.

    Regards, Peter

  12. #12
    The weight thing also depends on what you're doing. You're making guitars, so parts are light and force minimal. I have a thick hard maple top (i.e. much heavier than yours) and a lighter #2 size vise, yet the balance thing is noticeable. I also sometimes work on larger heavy pieces in the vise. In essence, one end of the bench can be moved, the other not. The top can be lifted easily at one end, the other not at all.

    It's good that it's not an issue for you, just mentioning it for other readers who's situation might be different. The distance from the front leg to the center of the vise does make a fair difference there. Keep in mind that if it's too close the dogs in the face of the vise can't be used (at least not as a pair) with dogs in the bench. If you don't need that capability you can get the leg really close.

  13. #13
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    Peter,

    Welcome to the Creek.

    I wish I had your problem. To me it is like an attempt at putting a Porsche engine in a Cadillac.

    What you want to do can likely be done, but the compromises required to accomplish the goal may make the end result something that you do not want.

    I have often imagined having an Emmert vise. Then I also realize that my current bench is not the right bench for the job.

    The question that enters my mind is if building a bench dedicated to the Emmert might not be the best solution.

    My first thought was to mount it on the back of the bench at the tail end, but there is a tool tray in the way.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Zwinakis View Post
    .......guitars
    Makes a lot more sense now, maybe you said that in the first post and I missed it.

    After the bench books came out, there was a flurry of "nobody knows what they're doing, everyone should use this type of bench", but nobody said "what kind of work do you do?".

    Usually find out people are pretty reasonable about their personal choices when you find out why they make them!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    Makes a lot more sense now, maybe you said that in the first post and I missed it.

    After the bench books came out, there was a flurry of "nobody knows what they're doing, everyone should use this type of bench", but nobody said "what kind of work do you do?".

    Usually find out people are pretty reasonable about their personal choices when you find out why they make them!
    This is one of the things that always makes me laugh. All the talk about the "Roubo bench" ignores everything about what they were for. The ultimate Roubo was called the "German" bench by Roubo. Why? Because it was the style used by Oeben, Riesener, Roentgen, and similar makers. They were Germans who lived and worked in Paris for the royal court, and generally regarded as greatest makers of the time.

    What really gets me is that here in the US where the workbench craze is going on, no one works the way they did, the procedures are totally different. They made Ebenisterie, as distinct from Menuiserie or joinery which is what most people make. In fact it's different enough that if you really want to learn about it, you have to read French.

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