Any golf experts?

[Dave Bonde]

I am a HS golf coach and at our meet last night the following occurred: a player laid the flag stick off the green – putted the ball - it rolled off the green and hit the flag stick. Does that result in a penalty?

[Tom Godley]

Thats a good one !

I can not recall that happening to me - but it must have in all these years !

"rub of the green" ?? It was an outside agency-!! And it was not competitors or partners.

No penalty and play where it lies -- Thats my ruling

[John Hart]

I'm going to take an opposing view (although this is just my opinion)

If you hit your opponent or his/her equipment, there is no penalty and you get to choose whether to hit again, or play where it lies.

If you hit yourself or your equipment, there is a two stroke penalty and you play where it lies.

Based on those two rules...I would submit that if you were the one who placed the flag on the ground, then it is your equipment and therefore a two-stroke penalty.

[Lee Schierer]

I did a google search of your question and found this.

"Rule 17, and the Decisions arising from it, deals with most aspects concerning the flagstick. I recommend that all golfers read this Rule for themselves, but in this blog I am going to highlight the most salient points;

* The first one is one that in my experience surprises many players. The flagstick may be attended, removed or held up before making a stroke from anywhere on the course. But I recommend that you don’t ask for it to be attended if you are playing to a putting green that is 150 yards away, as you may soon run out of people to play with! (Rule 17-1).
* If a competitor sees that a ball is going to hit a flagstick that has been removed, typically when it is lying on the putting green beside the hole, they may move it to avoid the ball striking it, without incurring a penalty (Decision 17-1/7). Before 1st January 2008 such an action incurred a penalty of one stroke.
* If an unattended flagstick is still in the hole when a player makes a stroke, no-one may remove it while a ball is in motion if doing so might influence the movement of the ball (Rule 17-2). Breach of this Rule incurs the general penalty**.
* Here's one that not many people know. Anyone standing close to the flagstick (i.e. within reach of it) is deemed to be attending it, even if the player making the stroke has not authorised them to do so. So, when playing a stroke be very careful and ask anyone standing close to the flagstick to move away, or you could incur the general penalty** if your ball strikes it, even though you may have been playing from off the green (Decision 17-1/1).
* There is nothing in the Rules stipulating where a player must stand when attending the flagstick (Decision 17-1/4).
* A player may hold the flagstick with one hand and tap their ball into the hole with the other. But they should make sure that they remove the flagstick so that their ball does not strike it and may not use it for assistance. Decision 17-1/5.
* If a ball strikes the flagstick, while it is being attended, the player making the stroke incurs a general penalty** (Rule 17-3). This may seem unfair as it could be due to the carelessness of the person attending the flagstick for you, but that is the Rule. However, if a fellow competitor, or opponent, purposely allows a ball to hit the flagstick, so that the player will incur a penalty, then they are disqualified under Rule 1-2 for influencing the movement of the ball.
* If your ball is on the putting green you should always ask for the flagstick to be attended, because if your ball hits the flagstick you incur the general penalty** (Rule 17-3).
* The flag is part of the flagstick and the same rulings apply if a ball hits the flag (Decision 17-3/5).
* Be extremely careful if your ball comes to rest against the flagstick. Rule 17-4 states that when you remove the flagstick, the ball must fall into the hole. If a player picks up their ball before it has completely dropped below the level of the lip of the hole they incur a penalty of one stroke, under Rule 18-2, and must place it back on the lip of the hole.
* When a player is making a stroke they may leave the flagstick positioned as it is or centre it in the hole, but they may not adjust it to a more favourable position than centred (Decision 17/4).

**The general penalty in stroke play is two strokes and in match play is loss of hole."[/COLOR]

[Tom Godley]

This is when it get fun

I remember a discussion regarding the 2008 change -- that you were allowed to pick/move a flag in the path of the ball. I only remember this because It was drummed into me at junior golf to "never move" on the green. This came directly after "silence".

So.......... if you can now move the flag without a penalty -- should it be a penalty if the ball hits a downed flag?


Even though these rules look to be directed at the flag the while it still in the hole. This looks to still fit * If your ball is on the putting green you should always ask for the flagstick to be attended, because if your ball hits the flagstick you incur the general penalty** (Rule 17-3).


So ...... now looks like two strokes.

[Jim Rimmer]

Since the flag was off the green, I think you would play it as it lies. There are other rules that apply to the flagstick while the ball is on the green.

19-1. By Outside Agency - If a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency, it is a rub of the green, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies

Outside Agency: An "outside agency" is any agency not part of the match or, in stroke play, not part of the competitor’s side, and includes a referee, a marker, an observer and a forecaddie. Neither wind nor water is an outside agency.

Rub of the Green: A "rub of the green" occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency (see Rule 19-1).

[John Hart]

However...if I am putting on a downhill slope, and I place the flag on the fringe at the downhill side, I have intentionally placed a barrier to prevent my ball from rolling off the green, in the event that I miss.

If someone else does it...I can see it as unintentional. But if I do it....hmmm

[Dave Bonde]

Interesting guys - Yes John that is my thought but it hard to prove intent that is why I was thinking it would be a penalty. One of the other coaches (who knows her stuff) was sure it was not a penalty I guess I still don't know

[John Hart]

Well...in my view, I'm not sure that intent is an issue when it comes to the rules of golf. We have some basic foundational premises that come into play here. Number one, a player can not improve their lie...whether it is upstream or downstream. Let's say it is a nice fall day and there are leaves all over the green. You can move the leaves to make your putt...but you can't pile them up on the backside of the hole.
Number two, placing the stick in the path of the ball (in this case, downstream) would be a violation. If you went to extremes...the player could lay the flag next to the hole to guide his ball in.

But...like you, I still don't know. Maybe a golf forum could lend a hand.

[Rick Moyer]

Since the flag was off the green, I think you would play it as it lies. There are other rules that apply to the flagstick while the ball is on the green.

19-1. By Outside Agency - If a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency, it is a rub of the green, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies

Outside Agency: An "outside agency" is any agency not part of the match or, in stroke play, not part of the competitor’s side, and includes a referee, a marker, an observer and a forecaddie. Neither wind nor water is an outside agency.

Rub of the Green: A "rub of the green" occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency (see Rule 19-1).

I would say it is a penalty. I don't believe a flagstick which has been removed is considered an"outside agency". Rule 17-3 states (parenthetically) that the player's ball must not strike the flagstick when it is being attended, held up, or removed. The fact that it has been removed would be the key, in my opinion, and not where it lies. It's really no different that if the player laid the flagstick directly behind the hole and putted his ball into the flagstick, stopping the ball inches from the cup. Has to be a penalty!

[Jon Lanier]

Rule 17-3. Two stroke penalty.
17-3. Ball Striking Flagstick or Attendant

The player's ball must not strike:
a. The flagstick when it is attended, removed or held up;
b. The person attending or holding up the flagstick or anything carried by him; or
c. The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the stroke has been made on the putting green.

Exception: When the flagstick is attended, removed or held up without the player's authority - see Rule 17-2.
Penalty for Breach of Rule 17-3:


Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes and the ball must be played as it lies.

[Mike Cruz]

So, the question is whether or not a person gets a penalty for missing the hole but hitting the broad side of a flag that is off the green, should he get a penalty? Hmmmm, he should definitely get a penalty...he should be given a nickname that sticks with him for the rest of his golf career! If nothing else, whenever I played with him, when we get on the green, I would make a point of standing as FAR away (off the green) from him as possible.

Sorry, that's how we grew up playing... A two stroke penalty you won't remember...your buddies razzing you...sticks like glue. May even make you a better putter.

[Dave Bonde]

I'm with you Mike - if it were me playing and my pal Tom did that I would get a lot of miles out of it and he would get at least 2 strokes for such a thing, BUT I am the girls golf coach and this happened to one of my well, less experienced golfers and I just thought it was a unique situation.

I called the USGA and as some of you said it is a 2 stroke penalty. It does not matter where the flag stick lies.

Dave

[Joe Chritz]

If you define golf as smacking a little white ball into the other fairway, swearing profusely and then doing it all again, then yes I am an expert.

Let me know if I can help.

Joe

[Brian Tymchak]

Rule 17-3. Two stroke penalty.
17-3. Ball Striking Flagstick or Attendant

The player's ball must not strike:
a. The flagstick when it is attended, removed or held up;
b. The person attending or holding up the flagstick or anything carried by him; or
c. The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the stroke has been made on the putting green.

Exception: When the flagstick is attended, removed or held up without the player's authority - see Rule 17-2.
Penalty for Breach of Rule 17-3:


Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes and the ball must be played as it lies.

Yes, Jon has it right. It's a violation of 17-3 a. Even if one player removed the flag and put it down for their stroke, the next player to play has the responsibility of the flag position when they take their stroke.