Vinegar & Citric Acid Rust Removal Questions ?

[Thomas Nye]

I have cleaned my vintage saws and other tools with WD40, 0000 steel wool, 7447 scorchbrite for years. I have recently read about the vinegar rust removal method as well as citric acid.



Can you guys explain the process in detail as I would like to try it.

• how long to soak ?
• how well does it work ?
• any before & after pics ?

I have tried chemical rust removers and was not impressed. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[Jim Koepke]

I am not real sure of the chemical reaction details, but a weak acid like vinegar or mild citric dissolves rust but not the harder steel or iron.

I usually use citric acid since it is cheaper to mix up your own when you can find the powder.

I usually soak about 24 hours.

Here are some pictures, one before and two after:

Picture 16.jpgPicture 17.jpgPicture 21.jpg

It does a fairly good job, just rinse and towel off. A little steel wool or abrasive paper will shine it up a bit more. The face of the frog was lapped after the derusting.

jim

[Thomas Nye]

WOW, that looks great. Does it affect the paint on the inside of the plane, or does it only attack the rust ??? Now I cant wait to try it.

[Ron Petley]

It does not seem to do anything to the paint if you do not soak it for days.
If you scrub it with a toothbrush or something as you go along it speeds things up. It does leave a bit of a greay coating on the metal that will make your fingers black, but you can wipe this off after soaking.
Cheers Ron.

[Andrew Gibson]

I just finished soaking a Millers Falls block plane that was best referred to as a ball of rust. I ended up soaking it for a good 30 hours in vinegar. What was left of the original paint was still there after the soaking. I ended up painting the appropriate parts with some black Rustoleum and it looks pretty good now. I still need to finish flattening it, and eventually get a new iron for it as the one I have is severely pitted, but now rust free.

[David Cefai]

I have used Di-Ammonium Citrate successfully for rust removal. This is Ciric Acid 66% neutralised with Ammonia.

The way it works is to "chelate" the rust rather than "attack" it as neat citric acid does. The advantage is that it is even less aggressive to iron while bring almost as fast acting.

Best I can offer is: If you tell me the ammonia strength I'll calculate the proportions to mix.

[Peter Bell]

While I am just getting my head around all this I think it is important you have as much information laid out on the desk so you can make an informed decission on which way to go.

I am experimenting at the moment with the following products and processes.

1. Ordinary vinegar
2. Cleaning Vinegar
3. Citric Acid
4. Combination of Vinegar and Citric Acid.
5. Mollases
6. Phosphoric Acid
7. WD40
8. Steel Wool


And my favourite depending on the application
9. Electrolysis


My research so far suggests that Vinegar and Citric Acid actually etch the material it is working on. This has an advantage when we are trying to restore old files and rasps and I am led to believe it can even make some of the newer ones even sharper.

I like electrolysis for doing up old saw blades and have had good success with dipping an iron plane in the process.

From what I have read most people have their favourite and some defend it to the death. I tend to think that each case should be taken on its merits and then choose the one that in your opinion best suits the problem.

As I am still researching and learning I like to follow any information I can get and not have a closed mind.

I hope this thread goes for a bit longer so I may glean some more useful insights.

Peter

[jerry nazard]

Let's not forget Evaporust.

[Jim Koepke]

Peter,

I have never heard of using molasses. Have you tried it and did it actually remove rust and not leave a sticky mess?

My experience with WD-40 and steel wool is that both required a heavy application of elbow grease to work.

I like effective, cheap, ecological and easy to clean up. I do not know that one method is any better than the others though I do suspect that electrolysis works better than some.

Citric acid has worked pretty well for me so far. Now that I live in the Northwest a new source will have to be found.

jim

[Paul Ryan]

I usually soak in vinegar over night and then into the day. Probably 16-24 hours. After removing I scrub what I can with a scotch bite pad, stainless steel toothbrush, and the larger areas with a scotch disc on a die grinder. It works real well the scotch disc will take the rust off with out the vinegar soak but it requires a lot more time. I have not had the vinegar cause any problems with the paint it shines up the brass and does a nice job. I have never tried citric acid. Some one here recommended vinegar, I bought 2 gallons from walmart for $3. I never looked for citric acid because the vinegar has worked so well for me.

[Thomas Nye]

My current method is to scrape down the blade with a razor blade, then a heavy dose of WD40 & either 0000 steel wool or 7447 red fine scotchbrite. I find scotchbrite does a better job and is quicket too. It does indeed take alot of elbow grease and in my experience it is effective...........I had read about the vinegar & citric acid and wanted info on this process. At the current time, I am mainly interested in it to clean vintage saws blades, though I have a Ton of planes that could use a bath as well. So all the info I can get will be helpful.
Thanks for the responces and info so far, I look forward to more. Thanks in Advance.......

[David Keller NC]

Thomas - Regarding the citric acid, here's a place to start - dissolve about one tablespoon of citric acid into about a quart of warm tap water. It should dissolve easily and quickly.

Immerse the part to be de-rustified into the liquid, and wait about 30 minutes to an hour. During this time, you should notice quite a few bubbles forming on the rusted part. Remove the part, rinse in warm tap water, and examine it. If it's still rusty (and was really rusty to begin with), then you may have exceeded the capacity of the tablespoon of citric acid (the chemical reaction "uses up" the citric). Just make another solution and repeat as before. Citric acid is perfectly safe at this concentration for your pipes and so is the iron citrate that's formed during the reaction, so just pour the used liquid down the drain.

One warning - if you wish to preserve the etch on a saw, do not use the citric, acetic (vinegar) and especially the phosphoric acid treatment - these chemical treatments will obliterate the etch on most saws. In such a case, scraping with a single-edged safety razor blade is the best option.

[Thomas Nye]

Thomas - Regarding the citric acid, here's a place to start - dissolve about one tablespoon of citric acid into about a quart of warm tap water. It should dissolve easily and quickly.

Immerse the part to be de-rustified into the liquid, and wait about 30 minutes to an hour. During this time, you should notice quite a few bubbles forming on the rusted part. Remove the part, rinse in warm tap water, and examine it. If it's still rusty (and was really rusty to begin with), then you may have exceeded the capacity of the tablespoon of citric acid (the chemical reaction "uses up" the citric). Just make another solution and repeat as before. Citric acid is perfectly safe at this concentration for your pipes and so is the iron citrate that's formed during the reaction, so just pour the used liquid down the drain.

One warning - if you wish to preserve the etch on a saw, do not use the citric, acetic (vinegar) and especially the phosphoric acid treatment - these chemical treatments will obliterate the etch on most saws. In such a case, scraping with a single-edged safety razor blade is the best option.

Thanks for the info. So, for saws I can see the etch, I will do my normal cleaning. But for some that are more pitted and the logo cannot be preserved, it should work great. I would love to see before and after pics of a saw being done. The process I use works pretty good, but I have read how good the other cleaners ( vinegar & citric acid ) work and I wanted to see if its a better alternative.

[Jim Koepke]

For a stronger form of vinegar, you could try photographic supplies.

Black and white photo stop is just a stronger form of acetic acid.

If you do not have at least a minimal understanding of chemistry and how to mix safely, it might be better to do some research before attempting this at home.

Remember that different grades of chemical supplies have different classifications for purity.

Photo grade acetic acid will not have the same type of impurities allowed in metal finishing grades which will be different than food grade and so on.

jim

[Kenneth Speed]

I've yet to try either citric acid or electrolysis but I've read that those methods aren't optimal for saw blades. I don't know why but I suspect it may have something to do with preserving the etching on the blade.

I've scrubbed some saw blades with a razor blade and fine abrasives lubricated with oil and it works but I'd sure be open to a less labor intensive method.

Vinegar mixed with a little table salt is a very old home made good brass cleaner that works well but I've never tried it on iron or steel.

I'm planning to experiment with some junk saws and citric acid in the near future.