Cabinet or Hybrid TS v Jobsite: Space Issues Etc

[John Mark Lane]

Couple o' thoughts, having had a benchtop, a Unisaw w/52" capacity, and now a Rigid hybrid.

• Bought the Uni thinking it'd be great for cutting down 4x8 ply. It may be, but not for me: those things are heavy, awkward, and much easier to cut to rough dimension (for me) with circ saw and cheap guide. You can always do final trimming on the TS. Uni (probably any decent cabinet saw) was awesome, but I moved so it had to go.
• Most cabinets are 24" deep, so if you agree with my above point, it is doubtful you'd need much more capacity than that. Bookcases are typically 12-16" deep, so again you'd be fine.
• I had quite a bit of luck crosscutting with the table saw and a fence screwed to the miter gauge. would be even easier with a sled. IMHO, in a cramped space, I'd say forget a RAS or powered miter saw. (admission: I've only skimmed your post, so if you are doing on-site installs, then perhaps an SCMS would be useful.
• Force yourself to think the 80.20 rule, plan for the 80% to be easy/convenient, and find ways to 'make due' the other 20%. I.e., the hand planes for the odd wide board, or a handsaw for the odd wide cross cut.
• If you end up with a hybrid with cabinet mounted trunnions as someone else mentioned, the main noticeable difference is really just one of power and perhaps the fence depending on what you buy. The 3HP Uni went through 3" oak like it wasn't even there; haven't stressed out my hybrid yet, but it is not that often I am ripping 12/4 stock. When I do, I can probably slow down a tad on my hybrid.
• The cabinet saws (whether full or hybrid) definitely have a smaller footprint and better DC than a contractor. worth paying more for IMHO. When I looked at the (better) jobsite saws, they still take up almost as much floor space in use, and they really don't take up much less space when they are folded up on their rolling stands. Plus they use a regular 'universal' motor, so you are essentially using a circular saw mounted upside down: loud, less powerful, and loud.
• Be sure to check out models with riving knives..much easier to install/remove, so more likely you will be using them. Also avoids you having to go in and change your user name to something alluding to how many fingers you lost that one time your attention wandered.

Shawn, very helpful comments, thanks. I agree, cutting large sheet goods is a pain without a much larger table setup than I can use (or have any interest in). I can cut large pieces in the driveway using other tools. I really don't even need 24" rip capacity on the TS.

The biggest thing that's pestering me is precisely your point that a cabinet saw has a smaller footprint than a contractors saw, and maybe even takes up less actual room than a jobsite saw. And gives you more power, smoothness, better DC, quieter motor, etc. But it only takes up less room if it doesn't have the massive extensions that most of them seem to come with. For the life of me I can't seem to find any info (or even pictures) of a Unisaw or similar taken down to its basic table size. That's what's intriguing me.

[John Mark Lane]

Mark - There's always more than one way to skin a cat in wwing, but I rarely crosscut anything that my TS won't handle. For those rare occasions that I encounter a really long board, I pull my CMS off a shelf and make the cut with that, as opposed to leaving it setup full time....just another reason I prefer the TS-centered philosophy.

Dave raises a good point....I do find myself short of work space often, and that's when the whole TS/router table/extension table/outfeed/workbench area is invaluable to me.

Thanks for the suggestions. I dunno...having a cross-cut saw set up and ready to grab at any time is probably something I don't want to give up. I expect to be bringing in some 6-8 foot planks on a regular basis, cutting them down to the sizes I want to work with etc. I use a cross-cut saw constantly. Doing it all on a TS strikes me as a compromise -- I'd have to take the fence off. get the miter jig out, make room, and maybe even change the blade.

As for the router, I had planned to make one of those fold-down router tables that mounts to a bench on hinges and you just pull it up and lock it in place when you need the router.

I do like the idea of a bench/workspace based on or around the TS, and can see doing it. Just ... it can't be very wide. Longer is better than wider.

[John Mark Lane]

These have all been great suggestions, I'll just add in my 2 cents.

As far as kids go, depending on their age, to me the table saw seems too scary. I have a bandsaw and let my son use it, with supervision. It may be my illusion, but the bandsaw just seems much safer.

Also, you mentioned you intend to make chairs. If you want to make something like a Chippendale sytle chair, or Queen Anne, a bandsaw would be just the ticket, and a table saw would make a great workbench. And the bandsaw can't be beat for making odds and ends. I know for cabinets, etc, it's just the opposite though.

I can't help but think that the table saw you have now is just fine, and if you need another saw it would be something like a little bit bigger bandsaw. Just my opinions though.

Yes, a table saw is a very scary machine. One option that I saw on a couple of saws was the abililty to lock the on/off switch, and I may do that. Also the shop will be locked up when I'm not there, and power tool use will be verrrrry carefully regulated. As it is, my son (5 y/o) is allowed to slowly lower the miter saw onto a board and pull the trigger, while I hold everything in place. Or turn the wheel of the DP to drill a hole. He mostly uses his hand tools (real tools that I gave him) and his own bench.

And yes, a bandsaw is high on my list and will be a focal machine in this shop. I'm still agonizing over that decision, as well (will probably decide on an overall "package" of machines before buying any one of them).

Thanks for the response. Any more thoughts please keep it coming.

Mark

[Mike Hadler]

Yes, a table saw is a very scary machine. One option that I saw on a couple of saws was the abililty to lock the on/off switch, and I may do that. Also the shop will be locked up when I'm not there, and power tool use will be verrrrry carefully regulated. As it is, my son (5 y/o) is allowed to slowly lower the miter saw onto a board and pull the trigger, while I hold everything in place. Or turn the wheel of the DP to drill a hole. He mostly uses his hand tools (real tools that I gave him) and his own bench.

And yes, a bandsaw is high on my list and will be a focal machine in this shop. I'm still agonizing over that decision, as well (will probably decide on an overall "package" of machines before buying any one of them).

Thanks for the response. Any more thoughts please keep it coming.

Mark

Mark,
I am in the process of building out my small shop which is basically a dual use 2 car garage. I want the ability to park 2 cars in the garage, so my focus is on space maximization and portability. My solution to start with was to get a Bosch4100 contractor saw on a gravity rise stand. I also have a 6" jointer and a Dewalt 735 planer to go with my mitre saw. I didn't think I had enough space for all of this stuff on mobile stands, so I decided to build what is referred to as the Ultimate Tool Stand. It allows me to use it as station for my miter saw, outfeed for my table saw, router table, downdraft sanding station and a base for my planer. The planer, router table and miter saw all store below. I'm also planning on building a V Drum sander, so that should fit in the stand as well when I get around to building it.

You can find more info and lots of pictures of the stand at:
http://christophermerrill.net/ww/pla...l_Stand_1.html

Just thought it might be something of interest to you.

Mike

[Van Huskey]

I had a Delta Shopmaster and Jet Proshop Hybrid, and now a Sawstop PCS.

I believe if you stick with this 'hobby' you will ultimately want a cabinet saw. The only reason to go with a hybrid is if you really don't want to upgrade your power to 220v.

.

Or even better the 120V SS PCS!

[Curt Harms]

I work with rough stock some of the time and prefer to rip it on a band saw rather than a table saw. I've ripped lumber on a table saw and have it spread or pinch due to case hardening or reaction wood. European saws use a short fence that ends just past the blade for this very reason. I've haven't had a nasty kickback yet due to that but it's no fun. The bandsaw doesn't present a kickback hazard like the tablesaw does. Yes a riving knife alleviates the kickback hazard. A properly set up bandsaw can rip very accurately, and jointing 1/32" will present a great edge. OTOH I don't have a bandsaw that will cut glue up ready edges like the tablesaw will. A larger bandsaw with a carbide blade may very well rival table saw quality cuts.

And yes, a bandsaw is high on my list and will be a focal machine in this shop. I'm still agonizing over that decision, as well (will probably decide on an overall "package" of machines before buying any one of them).

Thanks for the response. Any more thoughts please keep it coming.

Mark

[Shawn Albe]

The biggest thing that's pestering me is ... it only takes up less room if it doesn't have the massive extensions that most of them seem to come with.

Very true. Grizzly's website has a few options that come with a smaller rip capacity (something like 26-30") but still with both wings and a small extension, those end up being about five feet wide. Still not small. Just looking at the Ridgid or Steel City hybrid cabinet saws, they look to be about 40" wide according to their specs but they look wider.

You might be able to take one wing off of any TS, but remember the motor sticks out, so you may as well leave at least the one on. Frankly I would leave both wings, maybe cut down/eliminate the extension table. but leave the wings.

I had more time to re-read your first post more closely, should have done that first. For what you are looking to do, I agree with a previous poster that a good bandsaw may be a better buy at this point. There was a good article in FWW a few years ago (issue 193, "My Five Essential Power Tools" by Rogowski) where he picked the bandsaw as his top tool. This was based on *his* projects, which were generally more made of solid wood than sheet goods. I think this aligns with what you make or intend to make: boxes, chairs, small tables etc. A bandsaw is much more versatile for solid wood: curves, resawing, joinery than a table saw and arguably safer as well since there is no kickback. They can rip, crosscut, and bevel as well. They also have a much smaller footprint.

If you did a lot of work with plywood, such as cabinetry or bookcases, then I would have a different answer.

And I wouldn't spend up for a 'true' 3HP cabinet saw at twice the cost of the 1.75HP hybrid cabinet saw. Put any savings toward a bandsaw. Many here rave about the Grizzly G0513 17" bandsaw. If you were to shift gears and get a bandsaw instead of the TS, that would be a much better choice than a 12" or even 14" bandsaw.

[John Mark Lane]

I work with rough stock some of the time and prefer to rip it on a band saw rather than a table saw. I've ripped lumber on a table saw and have it spread or pinch due to case hardening or reaction wood. European saws use a short fence that ends just past the blade for this very reason. I've haven't had a nasty kickback yet due to that but it's no fun. The bandsaw doesn't present a kickback hazard like the tablesaw does. Yes a riving knife alleviates the kickback hazard. A properly set up bandsaw can rip very accurately, and jointing 1/32" will present a great edge. OTOH I don't have a bandsaw that will cut glue up ready edges like the tablesaw will. A larger bandsaw with a carbide blade may very well rival table saw quality cuts.

Interesting. Hadn't really thought of it that way. Sort of counsels more in favor of the larger bandsaw, something I am still on the fence about.

In case anybody still reading this has any advice/info on the following, I still don't know the real answer:

Can you take a basic cabinet saw, like a Unisaw or a PM 64 or one of the Grizzly's or whatever, and take it down to the basic top, without extensions, or with short extensions, and get a decent set of rails and fence that won't extent 50 feet out to the right? I would like to keep the total width of the saw to maybe 36 inches or so. For the life of me, I can't find any pics/info/saws for sale/ads/ or anything like this. Everybody seems focused on Bigger is Better.

[Zach England]

My space is smaller than that and I was very glad to ditch me cheesy Bosch saw for a cabinet saw. The sacrifice is worth it. I'd rather get rid of my jointer than go back to a small table saw. Now I am trying to figure out how to fit a saw with 52 inch rails in there and trying to get the exact dimensions of the PM2000 cabinet to know if it will fit down my staircase.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I'll toss in my $0.02. Get the biggest table saw that you can afford or want. I built a plywood top or cap. The saw doubles as my workbench, when I'm not using it as a saw. In fact, I'm planning to toss out or recycle my workbench, since it's now buried behind my saw. It is a PITA to move the saw around and yes, when I use the saw I have no workbench per se, but the 52" has a lot of room on the wing, and there is always some space. I also dropped in a router plate, as mentioned, so it also doubles as my router table. None of this is new, someone has mentioned all of these earlier. Just reinforcing that the TS is my workhorse of the shop, and that is where I plinked down my hard earned dollars. Not saying that you can't do a lot of work with a top quality bench top, I have friends that only have a bench top.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I have a small shop in the basement of a townhouse.

I previously owned a General 650 cabinet saw with 32" rip capacity.

It was the smallest footprint/highest capacity machine I could find.

I also had an Excalibur overarm guard on it, with a Merlin removable splitter. Excellent dust collection, good finger protection, you aren't tempted to run without a guard which is about the dumbest thing you can do.

I made a folding outfeed table for it that was about 30" deep, plenty large yet it folded against the back of the saw for storage.

Do yourself a favour and buy the saw once, get a premium machine, if I was going to buy a cabinet saw again, which I wouldn't, I'd buy a SS.

Regards, Rod.

[John Mark Lane]

Thanks for the continued comments and ideas.

Rod -- You spoke in past tense about the cabinet saw. What do you use now? And why did you replace the General?

For those suggesting a Saw Stop saw, I looked and they are a bit out of my price range.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks for the continued comments and ideas.

Rod -- You spoke in past tense about the cabinet saw. What do you use now? And why did you replace the General?

For those suggesting a Saw Stop saw, I looked and they are a bit out of my price range.

Hi, I finally got fed up enough with all the things a cabinet saw doesn't do, or do well, and purchased a Hammer B3 Winner sliding saw/shaper.

Having a small shop, the previous General saw and shaper took up more room than the Hammer, which is only as large as the General saw.

I now have a 49" sliding saw, which means I can actually cross cut a piece of veneered plywood (oh, and I ordered the saw with a scoring blade, bliss.).

I can also straight line rip a 49" piece of hardwood, and the quick connect table extensions and accessories result in a machine that is only as large as I need at the time.

I also really like having a tilting spindle shaper with a sliding table.

So, more capacity, accuracy, capability and performance than a cabinet saw in the same footprint.

It doesn't get much better..........Regards, Rod.

[John Mark Lane]

Hi, I finally got fed up enough with all the things a cabinet saw doesn't do, or do well, and purchased a Hammer B3 Winner sliding saw/shaper.

Having a small shop, the previous General saw and shaper took up more room than the Hammer, which is only as large as the General saw.

I now have a 49" sliding saw, which means I can actually cross cut a piece of veneered plywood (oh, and I ordered the saw with a scoring blade, bliss.).

I can also straight line rip a 49" piece of hardwood, and the quick connect table extensions and accessories result in a machine that is only as large as I need at the time.

I also really like having a tilting spindle shaper with a sliding table.

So, more capacity, accuracy, capability and performance than a cabinet saw in the same footprint.

It doesn't get much better..........Regards, Rod.

Holy cow! I had to look that up. That's an amazing machine! Sheesh, leave it to the Austrians to come up with something like that. That's absolutely awesome. What do you make with that thing (hey it's my thread I can hijack it if I want ).

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi JM, I'm in the process of making an Arts and Crafts couch for the living room.

This weekend one of the Canadian forum members is coming over to "borrow" the shaper to make some raised panel doors.

I forgot to mention that I moved my feeder from the General to the Hammer, where it's mounted on a swing away bracket.

I used it with the saw recently to rip a bunch of sticks for the couch.

I don't use much sheet material, however I really like not having to fumble around with a sled on the saw.

I may be getting smarter as I get older, I know I'm not as strong or as co-ordinated as I was 30 years ago. The slider just makes things easier, and more accurate for me.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. What's in your avatar?