percise bits and a few noob bit questions

[Matt Clara]

I've been looking at the bits from PreciseBits.com, and I'm just a little unclear exactly what I should be purchasing. I understand the fishtail endmills to be good for roughing passes in general (though I would think 1/4" would be better than the 1/8" largest diameter I can find on the pb.com site), as well as for cutting pockets and inlay work. My understanding was that there are up cutting, down cutting and compression bits, depending on what kind of cut one is looking for, but I don't see any mention of that on the pb.com website.

It's also my understanding that 2 flutes are good for roughing, as they make bigger chips and can run at higher ipm without too much heat build up, and more flutes for finer cuts. Is that correct?

Perhaps I'm making a mistake buing all my bits at precisionbits.com? I want their .023 fret slotting bit, and their precision collets, but other than that, I can go somewhere else.

Advice? Thanks.

[Nicholas Bukky]

Matt there are a lot of places to buy tooling. I get a lot from Centurion Tool they have all the up and down and compresion bits up to 1/2inch I think and also v bits and ball nose. I use compresion bits when I am cutting thru veneer ply wood for cabinet parts to pull up thru the bottom veneer for a clean cut. That is the main purpous for the compresions as far as I know(and thats not much) The down spirals help to keep pressure forcing the part to the bed of the router and also push the chips down. Up spiral pulls the chips out and away but also pulls up on the work.
Don't know if this helps but I hope it does! There are a lot on here with more knowledge than me maybe they will chime in. I'm just a hack....


take a look at these
centuriontools.com
toolstoday.com
magnate.net

Nick

[james mcgrew]

I've been looking at the bits from PreciseBits.com, and I'm just a little unclear exactly what I should be purchasing. I understand the fishtail endmills to be good for roughing passes in general (though I would think 1/4" would be better than the 1/8" largest diameter I can find on the pb.com site), as well as for cutting pockets and inlay work. My understanding was that there are up cutting, down cutting and compression bits, depending on what kind of cut one is looking for, but I don't see any mention of that on the pb.com website.

It's also my understanding that 2 flutes are good for roughing, as they make bigger chips and can run at higher ipm without too much heat build up, and more flutes for finer cuts. Is that correct?

Perhaps I'm making a mistake buing all my bits at precisionbits.com? I want their .023 fret slotting bit, and their precision collets, but other than that, I can go somewhere else.

Advice? Thanks.

write us a list of initial projects!!

so i take it you have purchased a router!?

[Matt Clara]

write us a list of initial projects!!

so i take it you have purchased a router!?

One of the first things I'll want to do is make a radius dish, which is basically a 2' x 2' x 3/4" mdf that has the side of a ball, or dome, taken out of it. One shapes a ukulele (or guitar) in such a dish, lined with sandpaper, before gluing the top and bottom on, giving the top and bottom a slight radius. So basically, I need to hog the mdf out of the middle in a dish/dome shape. I'll also want to cut 3/4" baltic birch ply for jigs, like the Fox Side Bender (named after its inventor, Charles Fox, used for bending guitar sides quickly and consistently--I hope to sell them, eventually, but I also just want one, too). Then I want to set it up to shape ukulele necks out of mahogany and sycamore and sometimes something a little harder, like cherry. Then I'll want to have it cut me some ukulele bridges out of woods like ebony and wenge. Oh, and fretboards, slotted, with holes drilled for the mother of pearl marker dots, and cut to shape. Those will also be ebony and the like. I also want to get into 3D carving and inlay for the fancification of aforementioned ukuleles and their parts. I figure I should get some v bits for carving signs, too, 'cause I've thought up a few signs since I've wanted a cnc, plus Keith says I'll eventually discover that they can be profitable, which sounds like a pleasant discovery indeed. Oh, and I also need a new deck for my lawn mower. I thought I might route one out of oak. Just kidding (though I did actually think about it!).

The little playing around in Cut3D I did showed I would likely want ball nose and endmills in 1/16, 1/8 and 1/4" sizes. For inlay work I would want down cutting, I gather, because they leave the top surface cut clean...? The fretboard slots I want to cut need to be .023" wide, so I assumed I would want a .023" bit, which Precise Bits does provide. I also want their precision collets, because they have great reputations, and I'll need the 1/8" one, for sure, anyway.

[Gene Crain]

One of the first things I'll want to do is make a radius dish, which is basically a 2' x 2' x 3/4" mdf that has the side of a ball, or dome, taken out of it. One shapes a ukulele (or guitar) in such a dish, lined with sandpaper, before gluing the top and bottom on, giving the top and bottom a slight radius. So basically, I need to hog the mdf out of the middle in a dish/dome shape. I'll also want to cut 3/4" baltic birch ply for jigs, like the Fox Side Bender (named after its inventor, Charles Fox, used for bending guitar sides quickly and consistently--I hope to sell them, eventually, but I also just want one, too). Then I want to set it up to shape ukulele necks out of mahogany and sycamore and sometimes something a little harder, like cherry. Then I'll want to have it cut me some ukulele bridges out of woods like ebony and wenge. Oh, and fretboards, slotted, with holes drilled for the mother of pearl marker dots, and cut to shape. Those will also be ebony and the like. I also want to get into 3D carving and inlay for the fancification of aforementioned ukuleles and their parts. I figure I should get some v bits for carving signs, too, 'cause I've thought up a few signs since I've wanted a cnc, plus Keith says I'll eventually discover that they can be profitable, which sounds like a pleasant discovery indeed. Oh, and I also need a new deck for my lawn mower. I thought I might route one out of oak. Just kidding (though I did actually think about it!).

The little playing around in Cut3D I did showed I would likely want ball nose and endmills in 1/16, 1/8 and 1/4" sizes. For inlay work I would want down cutting, I gather, because they leave the top surface cut clean...? The fretboard slots I want to cut need to be .023" wide, so I assumed I would want a .023" bit, which Precise Bits does provide. I also want their precision collets, because they have great reputations, and I'll need the 1/8" one, for sure, anyway.

Wow, I don't think I can write any more!

...fretboard slots .023

running a .023 bit

...hope there is no runout or deflection

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

While Precise Bits has great stuff, they specialize in small bits, which tend to be expensive. I'd only buy bits there if you can't find it elsewhere.

For you're MDF dish, get a carbide tipped core box bit, the bigger the better. The larger size will cut it faster because you can use a much larger stepover, with a smoother finish. Look for a 1" or bigger, unless you need a smaller one for more detail.

For inlays, you do want downcut. I use 1/4" downcuts for cutting 3/4" baltic birch, making a couple passes.

I did my first carvings with some 1/8" ballnose bits I got on Ebay for $5 each. I pa about $7.50 for 1/16", and the few carvings I've done came out perfect. I now use the 1/8" ballnose for roughing, as the ballnose will give less tearout than straight bits when roughing. Of course, larger carvings may dictate larger tools.

For mother of pearl dot inlays, if they're 1/4", then I'd use a 1/4" upcut and a few light pecks. I use them for 1/4" holes. For slightly bigger holes, I'll peck drill a 1/4" hole, than enlarge it with a downcut spiral.

It's also my understanding that 2 flutes are good for roughing, as they make bigger chips and can run at higher ipm without too much heat build up, and more flutes for finer cuts. Is that correct?

You won't be cutting fast enough to need more flutes. 2 flute tools can easily cut several hundred inches/minute. And still give a very good finish.

[Michael Schwartz]

Another vote for Centurion, I buy most of my bits from them these days. I also use quite a few bits from Onsrud as well.

Precisebits.com has some small end mills 1/16 - 1/8 and smaller and the necessary collets that some people like for inlay.

A good starter set would be

1/8" tapered Ball nose for 3D Finishing Get more than one since they break.
1/4" Ball nose for 3D Finishing.
You can use any .25 endmill for Z level roughing.

Assorted 1/4". 3/8", and 1/2" end mills. A few 2 flute straight bits are nice, but the majority of cutting will be with down or up spiral end mills.

60 and 90 degree V bits.

2 flute bits are designed for cutting wood. Some 1/4" bits have a single flute, which allows for a greater chip load at slower speeds. 1/4" bits tend to flex, so 3/8" bits are better when you can use them.

Shopbot sells a starter set from Onsrud, which I believe is the same as the one sold by other manufacturers as well. This is a pretty good deal and comes with most of what you need to get started.

Good bits will last you a while, especially those that you don't use frequently.

[Andy Tripp]

My only complaint about the point round overs I have gotten from Magnate is there is no stamp on the tool shank indicating what the tool is which means I have to always store them in the plastic holders they came in to keep up with what radius the tool is(which isn't necessarily a bad thing) - otherwise the tool worked fine.

Matt there are a lot of places to buy tooling. I get a lot from Centurion Tool they have all the up and down and compresion bits up to 1/2inch I think and also v bits and ball nose. I use compresion bits when I am cutting thru veneer ply wood for cabinet parts to pull up thru the bottom veneer for a clean cut. That is the main purpous for the compresions as far as I know(and thats not much) The down spirals help to keep pressure forcing the part to the bed of the router and also push the chips down. Up spiral pulls the chips out and away but also pulls up on the work.
Don't know if this helps but I hope it does! There are a lot on here with more knowledge than me maybe they will chime in. I'm just a hack....


take a look at these
centuriontools.com
toolstoday.com
magnate.net

Nick

[Nicholas Bukky]

I got a few of those too Andy and do the same thing!!

They have good prices on their tools though!

Nick

[James Leonard]

I do like the Precise Bits tools for inlay. You shouldn't worry about surface fuzz, you are going to sand the finished inlay to level everything, right?

Are you going to use natural shell or abalam? I assume you want to do more than 1/4" dot inlays eventually. Abalam is GREAT for flat surface which will be under a finish. For a fingerboard with any kind of a radius, not so good. It tends to develop 'witness lines' when sanded to a radius (or any sanding throght the first layer of veneer). The best will be heavily patterned since that helps disguise these witness lines which are really just exposed epoxy.

-James

[Matt Clara]

I do like the Precise Bits tools for inlay. You shouldn't worry about surface fuzz, you are going to sand the finished inlay to level everything, right?

Are you going to use natural shell or abalam? I assume you want to do more than 1/4" dot inlays eventually. Abalam is GREAT for flat surface which will be under a finish. For a fingerboard with any kind of a radius, not so good. It tends to develop 'witness lines' when sanded to a radius (or any sanding throght the first layer of veneer). The best will be heavily patterned since that helps disguise these witness lines which are really just exposed epoxy.

-James

Thanks for all the info, everyone. I hadn't really thought about whether I'd use abalam or antural shell--as I'm just getting started, whatever I can get most cheaply is probably the best answer I can give. I want to work other hardwoods into my inlay, too, like this guy.

[John M Torrez]

I've been looking at the bits from PreciseBits.com, and I'm just a little unclear exactly what I should be purchasing. I understand the fishtail endmills to be good for roughing passes in general (though I would think 1/4" would be better than the 1/8" largest diameter I can find on the pb.com site), as well as for cutting pockets and inlay work. My understanding was that there are up cutting, down cutting and compression bits, depending on what kind of cut one is looking for, but I don't see any mention of that on the pb.com website.

We don't sell compression bits for reasons I wont go into.

.250" bits
http://www.precisebits.com/products/...each250f2f.asp
http://www.precisebits.com/products/...each250b2f.asp

Down-cut
http://www.precisebits.com/products/...cut_2flute.asp

All our standard 2 and 3 flute cutters are up cut.

It's also my understanding that 2 flutes are good for roughing, as they make bigger chips and can run at higher ipm without too much heat build up, and more flutes for finer cuts. Is that correct?

2 flutes are better for some materials (mostly plastics). However a properly made 3 flute cutter will work very well and is stronger then it's 2 flute cousin (it also last longer). Sometimes you have to feed a 3 flute faster in order to cool it as it will be taking one more bite per rev. This is probably where the "finer cuts" thing came from.

Perhaps I'm making a mistake buing all my bits at precisionbits.com? I want their .023 fret slotting bit, and their precision collets, but other than that, I can go somewhere else.

Advice? Thanks.

Of course not you should always buy all your bits from precisebits . All kidding aside there are a lot of places to buy bits. Obviously I have a bias opinion so I wont say more.

One of the first things I'll want to do is make a radius dish, which is basically a 2' x 2' x 3/4" mdf that has the side of a ball, or dome, taken out of it. One shapes a ukulele (or guitar) in such a dish, lined with sandpaper, before gluing the top and bottom on, giving the top and bottom a slight radius. So basically, I need to hog the mdf out of the middle in a dish/dome shape.

You will need a ball nose cutter for this. Size will depend on size of the finished size, required resolution, ect..

I'll also want to cut 3/4" baltic birch ply for jigs, like the Fox Side Bender (named after its inventor, Charles Fox, used for bending guitar sides quickly and consistently--I hope to sell them, eventually, but I also just want one, too).

Any fishtail end-mill with enough DOC should work well here.

Then I want to set it up to shape ukulele necks out of mahogany and sycamore and sometimes something a little harder, like cherry.

Larger is probably better here. I'd use a .250" end-mill. Of course my knowledge of ukuleles is not what it should be so there maybe a problem with that size radius.

Then I'll want to have it cut me some ukulele bridges out of woods like ebony and wenge.

For any tool under 1/4" in ebony I would recommend a 3 flute or shell cutter. They are stronger tools.

Oh, and fretboards, slotted, with holes drilled for the mother of pearl marker dots, and cut to shape. Those will also be ebony and the like.

Again for the fret slot use a 3 flute or shell cutter.

For the mother of pearl dots. As mention before you can use another endmill if your dots are that size. Otherwise you can almost always find a drill that is the correct size for the dots you want. Then mill out the MOP with a shell cutter.

I also want to get into 3D carving and inlay for the fancification of aforementioned ukuleles and their parts. I figure I should get some v bits for carving signs, too, 'cause I've thought up a few signs since I've wanted a cnc, plus Keith says I'll eventually discover that they can be profitable, which sounds like a pleasant discovery indeed. Oh, and I also need a new deck for my lawn mower. I thought I might route one out of oak. Just kidding (though I did actually think about it!).

You want ball nose cutters for any 3d carving. If you have a lot to do though you may be better off roughing with a larger fishtail end mill and then finishing with a ball nose.

If you are looking at signs you might want to take a look at a tapered carving tool. They have a smaller tip and taper up to a larger shank (ours as an example goes from a .0625" tip to a .250" shank). These tools give you the reach you need for the sign market and let you do 3d carving with a far amount of detail at the bottom. They are also extremely tough.

The little playing around in Cut3D I did showed I would likely want ball nose and endmills in 1/16, 1/8 and 1/4" sizes. For inlay work I would want down cutting, I gather, because they leave the top surface cut clean...?

If you have a properly designed up-cutting bit at the proper feeds and speeds you should have little to no problems with the top surface of your cut. That being said I do like down-cuts for some things (balsa as an example) but if I am cutting hard, hard woods then I'd go up-cut.

The fretboard slots I want to cut need to be .023" wide, so I assumed I would want a .023" bit, which Precise Bits does provide. I also want their precision collets, because they have great reputations, and I'll need the 1/8" one, for sure, anyway.

You might want to check your frets first. Some times they are NOT the size they claim to be.

...hope there is no runout or deflection

In the collets or in the router? Measurements on our PC 690 with our collets were .0005".


If there is anything I can help with please let me know.

Edit: oh sure, post something while I'm typing.

[Matt Clara]

John, I'm surprised you found this thread, what with me misspelling the name of the business in the title line! Thanks for the very informative response--I'll be making a purchase in the next couple weeks.

[james mcgrew]

i would also note that precise bits is the only source i have found for the 1/16th bn bit, i have purchased all of the bits i can find from retail sources for the carvewrite 16thbn and next is precise as the are better priced than the cw site, collets for the pc router are tops as well (wrench was tight) butt all in all first class

jim

[Nicholas Bukky]

Not to step on Johns toes but Centurion has .0625 bn Jim!

Nick