DC Consultants? (Overwhelmed, need help)

[John Mark Lane]

I'm posting this in some frustration. I've been trying to learn about dust collection. I have the Nagyszalansczy book (both editions). I've read some of Bill Pentz's stuff and have done some archive searches here. But it's all just a little overwhelming.

I have a small basement shop, but I want a good DC system for it. I have some limitations in terms of location etc. I seem to recall seeing somewhere that someone hired out their services as consultants in setting up DC systems. I thought it was Rockler, but I can't find it on their website.

Can anyone point me to a person/company that will work with me, for a reasonable fee, to help me set up a DC system?

Thanks,

Mark

[Nick Lazz]

Oneida will help design your system. I had the same issues as you, it can get a little overwhelming, however it is not as difficult as you may think.

I ultimately decided on the Clearvue and could not be happier. I use 6" S&D for all my runs. I used the formulas to calculate the losses and it works great.

Good luck!

Nick

[Matt Meiser]

Oneida will design a system for you. They used to do it for free. Probably because too many people (like me) had them do a design, choked on the cost of the system they designed, and did something in PVC or less expensive components. Now they'll credit the cost towards a 3HP or bigger cyclone.

[John Mark Lane]

Thanks, guys. It may have been the Oneida site where I saw this. I also noticed last night that Penn State Industries has a DC design service. Anyone know anything about that?

Thanks again,

Mark

[Greg Portland]

Thanks, guys. It may have been the Oneida site where I saw this. I also noticed last night that Penn State Industries has a DC design service. Anyone know anything about that?

Oneida will give you a free duct design with any purchase over $500 (i.e. any dust collector and pretty much any full-shop ductwork order).

IMO, you should go back to Bill Pentz's website and do exactly what is described in those pages. Determine the CFM requirements for each of your tools and run a duct (likely 6" for most tools) + blast gate to each location. In my shop, I only created 3 drops and put all the tools on mobile bases with mating collars.

Once you've determined the max CFM (based on your longest run and equipment) go out and get a dust collector. You can get something cheap and keep upgrading or you can bite the bullet and get an Oneida. Normally I would recommend Clearvue but they are out of business. Alternatively, you can modify existing cyclones or go the DIY route (cheaper but more time and likely not as nice an end product).

[John Mark Lane]

Oneida will give you a free duct design with any purchase over $500 (i.e. any dust collector and pretty much any full-shop ductwork order).

IMO, you should go back to Bill Pentz's website and do exactly what is described in those pages. Determine the CFM requirements for each of your tools and run a duct (likely 6" for most tools) + blast gate to each location. In my shop, I only created 3 drops and put all the tools on mobile bases with mating collars.

Once you've determined the max CFM (based on your longest run and equipment) go out and get a dust collector. You can get something cheap and keep upgrading or you can bite the bullet and get an Oneida. Normally I would recommend Clearvue but they are out of business. Alternatively, you can modify existing cyclones or go the DIY route (cheaper but more time and likely not as nice an end product).

Greg, thanks for the suggestions. I do intend to spend more time on Bill Pentz's site, doing pretty much exactly that. But I have a few quirks for the system I need, and could use some suggestions on how best to overcome them. The assistance of an expert is probably worth a few bucks to figure things out.

Thanks,

Mark

[Paul Wunder]

John,

Have you checked this month's Wood Magazine? There is a pretty good article on how to size and spec a dust collection system....written in "english." The article is easy enough to understand for a beginner and accurate enough to be of value for some one with some advanced knowledge. The article should help you to size your system (horsepower and Static Pressure) and give you solid info on ductwork.

One decision that you will need to make is what level of collection do you want. As Bill Pentz points out, to really capture most of the sub-micron size particles (they do the most damage to our lungs) you will need a higher cfm than either Oneida, Grizzly or PSI will generally recommend. You will also need 6" ports to accommodate that increased cfm. If all of your machines have 4" ports and you do not wish to upgrade now or in the future, then you will be OK with the recommendations of the above vendors. If you have or will have 6" ports, then tell the vendors so that they will size your equipment appropriately. I went through all this a while back and decided on a ClearVue system, with a Grizzly 3HP running a close second (for price vs. performance).

You may also want to look at a very good article from American Woodworker magazine from 2006. That was probably the best cyclone test article that I've seen. You can actually link to the entire article from the Oneida website. The best performers were Grizzly and Oneida with the Grizzly having a better price point. PSI did not fare well. Prices have changed since 2006, but not the quality.

Hope this is of some value.

[John Mark Lane]

Paul, thanks. I will see if I can track down those articles.

Here's kind of an off the wall (no fun intended) question. If I buy a blower, and build or buy a cyclone or other chip collector (looks pretty simple to me), and hook up the blower south of the cyclone...then run the exhaust hose to the outside of my house... generally speaking, does that final run need to be straight? Short? Or can it wind around a bit and be somewhat long? In my case, specifically, it would have to go up (with a 90) about three feet, then over (with a 90), crossing a small room about ten feet, then down slightly (maybe a 45) and out a basement window. The only restrictions would be the turns and the length of the hose. Without trying to get too scientific, does this strike you (anyone) as a workable approach? (Assume I won't have any issues with the outside exhuast...)

[Paul Wunder]

John,

Your approach sounds workable, but not ideal. If you look at the commercial cyclones, they all immediately elbow off the blower on the exhaust side. The ClearVue has a 6" inlet and the exhaust, I believe is about 7"x6". The point being is that you will need to accommodate your increased restrictions due to the numerous elbows. Ideally, you should have several feet of straight ducts before and after elbows. Maybe some of the experts here can give you some technical advice beyond my general thought that if you have a 6" input that your situation will require an 8" or better output.

If you are willing to make a cyclone, then I would highly .recommend going back to the Bill Pentz site. I believe that his son is making cyclones or cutting them out and they are for sale. You can also buy the other parts through his son or the listed vendors (for Leeson Motors and Sheldon Engineering for blowers). As you probably have already seen, Bill has full plans and instructions on how to make a cyclone.

Other guys will chime in, I'm sure, but the Bill Pentz designed cyclone is the best available. It was his design that Grizzly and Oneida copied and then modified downward for commercial reasons. So many of us bought the ClearVue knowing that it was designed by Bill Pentz.

There are also enough folks here that can get you through the wiring and other "stuff" and the ClearVue website is still up and has literally hundreds of install photos.

[John Mark Lane]

What happened to ClearVue?

[Paul Wunder]

John,

Ed Morgano, the owner and founder of ClearVue retired May 1 of this year. He was a retired machinist/woodworker who started the firm about six years ago. He had expected his son Matt to take over, but apparently Matt had other plans. The business is now up for sale. That's why I mentioned sourcing through Bill Pentz's website.

[Alan Schaffter]

If I buy a blower, and build or buy a cyclone or other chip collector (looks pretty simple to me), and hook up the blower south of the cyclone...then run the exhaust hose to the outside of my house... generally speaking, does that final run need to be straight? Short? Or can it wind around a bit and be somewhat long?

All fittings (couplings, wyes, elbows, etc.), inches of duct work, cyclones, other separators, filters, etc, affect system performance. It matters little if it they are on the intake or exhaust side of the the blower, they add static press resistance and reduce CFM. You can compute how much by looking at Bill Pentz's site or the Wood Magazine article.

[Greg Portland]

If you describe your exact problem some of us may be able to help. What tools, where are they located, problems you are having, etc...

[John Mark Lane]

Thanks, Greg. I will try to draw up my shop space and indicate the issues, and post an image with explanation. I sure would be grateful for any help. I'm totally a babe in the woods on dust collection.

Example -- I can't even figure out what will connect to what. I was at the Borg the other night and looked at some 4 inch S&D PVC. I even bought a T fitting for that pipe, to use as a basis for measuring. I then went online to try to find a blast gate that will connect to the stuff. I can't find one single blast gate where the website shows the actual ID/OD of the connection. How the hell is one even supposed to know what parts to order (even assuming one could figure out the overall configuration)?

[Alan Schaffter]

Thanks, Greg. I will try to draw up my shop space and indicate the issues, and post an image with explanation. I sure would be grateful for any help. I'm totally a babe in the woods on dust collection.

Example -- I can't even figure out what will connect to what. I was at the Borg the other night and looked at some 4 inch S&D PVC. I even bought a T fitting for that pipe, to use as a basis for measuring. I then went online to try to find a blast gate that will connect to the stuff. I can't find one single blast gate where the website shows the actual ID/OD of the connection. How the hell is one even supposed to know what parts to order (even assuming one could figure out the overall configuration)?

Don't fret- I don't think there is a commercial blast gate made that fits PVC S&D! You are better off making your own*. Most blast gates don't fit machine ports either, and most plastic ones don't fit metal duct. You need to be creative!

Also, I hope you weren't thinking of using "T's" anywhere! That is a REAL BIGl NO NO from a static pressure resistance stand point. You should use "wyes" for branches. And since you are contemplating a fixed, piped, system, forget about using 4"- you need 6" S&D.

* There is a nice article how to do that in the latest issue of American Woodworker. (an unabashed self-promotion )