DC Consultants? (Overwhelmed, need help)

[John Mark Lane]

Alan, I know this is gonna sound crazy to you guys who know this stuff...but here goes....

I am not going to put 6 inch pipe in this shop. The shop is so small, it will frankly eat up useful space and overwhelm the shop. It's going to be 4 inch for the main lines, and 4 or 2 1/2 inch to the machines.

The machines: a Bosch 4100 table saw, a Makita LSO714 slidling compound miter saw (or possibly a Metabo 8 1/2 inch SCMS), a Rikon 10-325 bandsaw, a Dewalt DW735 planer (on a rolling stand that will roll under the main bench when not in use), a 6 inch jointer, probably the Grizzly G0452, a benchtop sander, probably the Jet JSD-96 (6*48/9), a Delta 14 inch drill press, plus a floor sweep and a couple of flex hoses to be connected to things like a router table setup and hand-held tools like pad sanders. Oh, and probably a downdraft sanding station.

A fair amount of lines, but it will be rare if ever that more than once machine would run at once.

The shop is only 10 by 16, in my basement. It has a window to the outside (which I will rig with a hinged fan to blow out dust in decent weather). And I intend to hang a good quality dust collector from the ceiling.

I punched a hole in one of the 10 foot walls, about 5 feet up, in the center. There is a space on the other side of that wall (in a utility area) where I intend to put a DC with a cyclone. I may be able to vent to the outside easily. Or I'll add a filter etc.

I will have a dedicated 110 line. I could, with effort, conceivably have a dedicated 220 line.

My plan is to come thru the wall from the DC, and have a "T", with 4 inch S&D going in each direction. I'll have a blast gate on each side of the T, so I can cut off an entire direction. From the "left branch" of the T, I'll go over a few feet, then up (a 45), a 90 around a corner, and over a door top, then over maybe another 6 feet, and have two branches going down (from Y's). One will serve the table saw, the other probably a router table. Then a cap.

Going right from the T, I will first take at least one, maybe two, branches straight down (with Y's), to the jointer and possibly the sander, then make a 90 at the wall then straight over and a series of probably 4 branches, from Y's, going down to the SCMS, a sanding/work station, the planer, and maybe one random line. Then a 90 at the far wall, and two Y's, one to the drill press, one to the bandsaw. Then a cap.

About half the branches will be 4 inch flex pipe, the others 2 1/2 inch. All with blast gates, of course.

I realize this is not a great design. But it's what I have to live with, given my constraints. I totally intend to do this, subject only to being told that my house will explode.

So the questions, for me, really relate mostly to what kind of pipe (not what size) to use, what kind of connectors, blast gates, etc., and most importantly, what DC setup to use. I recognize that it's going to take a monster to pull all that thru that absurd pipe layout. A monster I will buy.

Recognize, this is not a pro shop. This is a small basement shop, with adequate natural ventilation much of the time, with an air filter, that will be used sparingly and for small projects. I'll make a birdhouse with the kids one weekend, maybe an end table the next. My 8 year old daughter (a piano protege ) wants us to build a custom piano bench for her. Little things. One tool at a time. I could actually get by with no DC, with just a shop vac and an air filter and a fan and some masks. But I want a DC to increase the removal of dust and shavings.

I've been doing this for a long, long time. I ran a professional cabinet shop in the early 80's. I made furniture for the Rich and Famous. I was a boat carpenter. I ran my own construction company for years and built spec houses. I never had a DC of any sort and always considered such things fru fru. I've become older and wiser. But I'm still mostly an old-fashioned guy with old fashioned ideas.

Now...with that overblown rant...can you help me?

Mark

[David Giles]

Use a 2-3Hp blower, 220V single phase.
Install a cyclone.
Use all 6" ducting including installing larger ports on each machine.
Make your own slide gates.
Vent outside, if at all possible, to avoid the final filtration bag or canister.
Installing the cyclone downstream of the blower keeps the bags under positive pressure. They are much easier to change.

Saving you 40 hours of reading dust collection websites, at $25/hr, means you owe me $1000. But I'll take $500 because I'm a nice guy.

[Alan Schaffter]

Return rant: It sounds like you have your mind made up right or wrong (mostly wrong) about what you plan on doing, so I wonder why you are asking for advice when you won't take it.

I am not going to put 6 inch pipe in this shop. The shop is so small, it will frankly eat up useful space and overwhelm the shop. It's going to be 4 inch for the main lines, and 4 or 2 1/2 inch to the machines.

I guess you are only concerned about picking up some and not all of the chips, but little of the dangerous, fine (.5 - 10 micron) dust. If you spent 30 years in the cabinet industry, you probably already have had too much exposure to fine dust!

You plan on having machines that will create significant amounts fine dust! To collect it you need CFM at the machine, which means decent sized ports, pipes, and efficient duct runs. Unlike a shopvac that works on static pressure and can handle small ducting, a DC works on moving volumes of air and so needs large duct. While 4" will work with short DC duct runs, 2.5" WILL NOT. 6" is better, even in a small shop. A comparison of the cross-sections of each size pipe will give you an idea of their CFM capacity:

2.5" diam.= 4.9 sq. in.
4" diam. = 12.5 sq. in.
6" diam. = 28.3 sq. in.

6" fit OK in my last 12' x 12' shop.

It has a window to the outside (which I will rig with a hinged fan to blow out dust in decent weather).

An excellent idea. Better than an air cleaner.

I intend to put a DC with a cyclone. I may be able to vent to the outside easily. Or I'll add a filter etc.

With 2.5" pipe, T's, lots of bend, lots of flex, etc. you are totally wasting money on a cyclone!

I will have a dedicated 110 line. I could, with effort, conceivably have a dedicated 220 line. . . . . My plan have a "T", 4 inch S&D, over a few feet, then up (a 45), a 90 around a corner, and over a door top, then over maybe another 6 feet, and have two branches going down (from Y's) . . . About half the branches will be 4 inch flex pipe

You better plan on a 220V line from the outset because you'll need a decent 2 - 3 hp DC to overcome that amount of static pressure resistance.

. . . . a blast gate either side of the T, so I can cut off an entire direction.

It is totally unnecessary to block off unused branches of your DC ducting if you have blast gates at your machines like you are planning.

I realize this is not a great design. But it's what I have to live with, given my constraints.

I see no constraints whatsoever, to anything I have recommended?

[Dave MacArthur]

I was going to post the exact same thing as Alan.
--Don't T, single main run with Y's off it to machines.
-- Group your machines on either side of a 6" feed, Y into them with blastgates right there behind them.
-- Use 6", you CAN fit it in, you know you can, I already know your ceiling height including your joists and the few things that hang down ! Too late to rescind all that previous thread info, unless you're > 7'6", I know you can fit 6" pipe up there.

-- Blast gates at the machines.
-- 6" lines to the machines reduced to fit their opening right AT the opening.

Seriously, I've read this stuff for LITERALLY 100 hours, done spreadsheets, bought magazines, looked at CFM charts and Static pressure charts for machines and pipe runs. So have most of the folks who read Dust Collection threads... it's a bit of an addiction once you start reading... Every guy who ever bought a cyclone started off asking why he couldn't use his shop vac and 2.5" lines, maaaayyybe 4" max. The answer always comes back the same:

if you're buying DC to keep the shop cleanish from shavings and sawdust, get yourself a good broom and dust-pan, borrow the wife's vacuum every other week.

If you're buying DC to mitigate health issues from super fine dust, keep your 8 y.o.'s lungs healthy and non-allergic, AND keep shop clean, then you'll need to comply with the same well-tested airflow engineering numbers that make a jet fly, keep CFM high enough to collect those fines, size the piping right to deliver that CFM while keeping flow velocity above 3500-4000 to keep shavings suspended in the stream, and have enough static pressure to overcome all the pipe and fittings it takes to deliver that CFM and FPS to the machines making the dust.

The GOOD news is that all this stuff has been done a million times, the answers to all your questions are well known and tested, it really doesn't cost but 5% more to do it right once you're talking about buying a 2-3HP cyclone, and there's lots of folks here that like to talk about DC to help out.

But if you say you're going to put in a T and use 2.5" again, I'm sorry but you're a heretic and no one in the Church of Dust Collection will be willing to worship with you.

[John Mark Lane]

Guys -- thanks for these very thoughtful and informative posts. Seriously, I really appreciate the input here. I'm not as stubborn as I probably sound, and I am listening. I need to study this more. I'm reading your posts over and over.