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Thread: Cabinet or Hybrid TS v Jobsite: Space Issues Etc

  1. #1
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    Cabinet or Hybrid TS v Jobsite: Space Issues Etc

    This may seem like kind of an odd (ie, dumb) question, but I'm gonna go for it anyway.

    I've already bored some of you with my space limitation (16 by 10) and the small shop I'm setting up in the space. I have been planning to upgrade my Delta Shopmaster TS to something like the Bosch jobsite saw. The idea is to get as much saw as I can out of a small space, and have something I can roll around as needed. I'll mostly be making small things like boxes, small tables, odds and ends. Maybe a chair here and there. But working with hardwoods, mostly 4/4 or maybe 6/4, the rare 8/4 piece. Total amateur weekend shop, place to teach my kids etc. Dust collection is an important factor, as is safety features (although truth be told I'll probably remove the blade guard, but I want to have the option).

    Lately I've been wondering if I should just go for a cabinet saw and leave off the extension wings, and get a good mobile base. I always wanted a Unisaw or a 64. I can't really deal with anything much wider than 30 to maybe 36 inches. But it seems like a Unisaw base is probably at least as small as a jobsite stand or base, and without the extensions and Unisaw is pretty small, no?

    All the cabinet saws I see for sale have huge wings on them and long fence systems. There must be a way to get one that's compact?

    I also see something I never heard of called a "hybrid", although I don't see much about them (I understand they're a closed base style saw but with lesser power and maybe different trunion designs?).

    Any thoughts on why one might go with a cabinet saw without the extensions as opposed to something more like a jobsite saw?

    Thanks!

    Mark

    Edit: I don't expect to be dealing with sheet goods much in the shop. To the extent I use them, I'll rip them in the driveway using the Shopmaster or something (it works ok with a little effort).
    Last edited by John Mark Lane; 05-18-2010 at 10:27 PM.

  2. #2
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    Hi Mark - FWIW, I don't think 10x 16 is all that tiny...

    For me, the TS is the heart and soul of my shop....my most used tool, and the one that I put the most time and money into. There's no question that I'd try to get as much saw into that space as possible. You won't be able to tell which saw cut which piece of wood, but the difference in how it feels, the power, smoothness, and the experience of using the bigger saw is not something I'd be willing to give up for the little bit of space savings a jobsite saw offers. Because of the amount of space the rails take up, I don't think removing the wings is going to buy you much space either.

    Here's a drawing of my shop layout....less than 1/2 of a 2 car garage is all the real estate that's alotted to my shop, which is pretty much what you've got. I've got a Shop Fox cabinet saw with 40" rip and a router table in the right wing, 6" jointer, planer, DC, 13" DP, 12" BS, sharpening area, tool bench, and a workbench in there. It's tight but it works out fine most of the time.

    Last edited by scott spencer; 05-18-2010 at 10:39 PM.
    Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

  3. #3
    First;

    "I'll probably remove the blade guard"

    Terrible idea, particularly if this is where you are going to teach the kids.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hybrids, as you say, are lower powered cabinet style saws. They also tend to have lighter trunnions. Most have the trunnions attached to the top, like a contractor saw. Those made by Steel City have them mounted to the cabinet, like a full fledged cabinet saw. Orion, a division of Steel City, makes the hybrids for Sears (I have one of these), Ridgid and General. These should all have cabinet mounted trunnions. This make adjusting the blade parallel to the miter gauge easier.

    A typical footprint is around 20" x 20" for hybrid and cabinet saws, although a mobile base could extend that. Without any extension wings, the typical top is 20" x 27". The problem with that, for rip cut, is that once you mount the fence, you have no capacity. At least one 12" wing is pretty much a necessity.

    I've been using the Craftsman 22124 for about 5 years. The 1.75 hp has been more than enough for me. In fact I'm upgrading to a SawStop, and getting the 1.75hp cabinet style.


    HTH

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott spencer View Post
    ... Because of the amount of space the rails take up, I don't think removing the wings is going to buy you much space either.

    Hi Scott, I was hoping you would reply, thank you. I've read a lot of your posts via the search feature.

    You're right, it's not that tiny. I had a smaller shop in my old house, and shared it with a lawn mower etc. I'm just trying to maximize it. The plan is to have the TS, a miter saw (would like a RAS but reluctant due to space), 12 or 14" BS (probably steel), DP (I have a big Delta but may get a benchtop for this space), bench sander, planer (probably lunchbox, store it under a bench) and jointer (debating benchtop, maybe 6 inch closed base). Plus tons of hand tools, workbench space with vices etc. DC will be outside the space in an adjacent area with the tube ran thru the wall. I can probably get a 220 line set up for the TS (plan to have one for the DC) if necessary.

    Anyway, on the width -- I had a Delta contractor's saw once that I put a Vega fence on. My recollection was that it was just a steel chrome plated tube. I could saw the thing shorter. That's really the big issue, I guess. I can take off the extensions, but the rails are the annoyance. I don't need width. I'll mostly be ripping smaller stock, doing occasional dados and crosscuts, but 16 inch capacity (or even less) would be enough for me. Question is, is it worth the $$ of a cabinet saw if I'm gonna take it down to such a barebones setup?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Overton View Post
    First;

    "I'll probably remove the blade guard"

    Terrible idea, particularly if this is where you are going to teach the kids.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hybrids, as you say, are lower powered cabinet style saws. They also tend to have lighter trunnions. Most have the trunnions attached to the top, like a contractor saw. Those made by Steel City have them mounted to the cabinet, like a full fledged cabinet saw. Orion, a division of Steel City, makes the hybrids for Sears (I have one of these), Ridgid and General. These should all have cabinet mounted trunnions. This make adjusting the blade parallel to the miter gauge easier.

    A typical footprint is around 20" x 20" for hybrid and cabinet saws, although a mobile base could extend that. Without any extension wings, the typical top is 20" x 27". The problem with that, for rip cut, is that once you mount the fence, you have no capacity. At least one 12" wing is pretty much a necessity.

    I've been using the Craftsman 22124 for about 5 years. The 1.75 hp has been more than enough for me. In fact I'm upgrading to a SawStop, and getting the 1.75hp cabinet style.


    HTH
    Hi Will and thanks for responding. Point taken on the blade guard. It is a concern, seriously.

    I was contemplating having the rails extend maybe 4 to 6 inches beyond the table on the right side (a custom rig?). That should give me at least 12-14 inches rip capacity, and I will rarely use that. I'll keep a portable TS in the garage (separate space) and haul it into the driveway for sheet goods etc. At least that's the idea. A 20 by 27 table is very appealing.

  6. #6
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    Boy, I sure would not want to remove the wings from my table saw for space-- think that's a false illusion of savings. You basically have a 1-car garage area, which is what I myself have when the tools are in the "stored" configuration. If you have ANY ability to move stuff around, say into a 2nd garage bay with car pulled out, or pull a saw out into a driveway, then your space limitations are much less.

    I think you can actually save MUCH MORE SPACE with a well-built table-saw extension! Remember, the space you have to keep clear around the saw for infeed/outfeed makes the actual footprint of the maching underneath almost inconsequential!

    FIRST, I would have 52" rails/extension, and have the saw mounted on a mobile base.
    SECOND, I would install my router in the extension. This saves you a router-table, you can build essentially a router-cabinet under the extension as a base. You get a LOT of storage under there. You can use your existing fence as the basis for your router fence, I built one that just slides on top of the biesmeyer.
    THIRD, I would fill in the rest of the area under the extension with a cabinet, again big space savings.
    FOURTH, I would use the extension as an assembly-table / work bench! Take a look at the PM2000, they sell the extension table as a work bench with bench dogs in it and everything!
    FIFTH, I would make a hinged outfeed table on the backside of the saw that you can pop up when needed.
    SIXTH, you can store the jointer UNDERNEATH the left extension wing! My DJ-20 rolls right underneath there, making the "footprint" of the 8" jointer meaningless!

    That's my take. Make the table saw the center of your shop, think of it as a saw/router/workbench/assembly area, the single most valuable and concentrated use of space in the shop. And if you want to keep from wasting valuable space, DON'T CONSIDER a RAS! Get a SCMS that you can move around instead. My whole shop rolls nicely into 20x 10 space, AND I can actually do 90% of my work with it all compressed like that--only have to roll/expand it a bit if doing long boards or sheet goods. There are tons of threads on here about mobile shops/small shops, this is a nut that has been cracked and eaten a thousand times, so don't assume you have to limit yourself when you might well not.

    I do love a good "what should I buy" and "shop design" thread! And there are some shop design tools that let you draw it all out nicely, check the Grizzly site for one, also Delta has one.
    Thread on "How do I pickup/move XXX Saw?" http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=597898

    Compilation of "Which Band Saw to buy?" threads http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...028#post692028

  7. #7
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    Dave has covered most of my thoughts. Just consider for a few minutes having a 50+ inch saw and just how much you can fit under/in this area and wheel it out of the way when need be.

  8. #8
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    Dave made a lot of great points. Get the cabinet saw and figure out how to make it work with creative use of space, mobility, and multi-use storage/stands.

    I too thought I had too small a space for major machinery and was going to get a Bosch jobsite saw. Thanks to prodding by many wise folks here, I became willing to think about using my space in ways I didn't see before, and sure enough have managed to fit much more into my small space than I thought possible. I've also spent more money than I thought I would, but let's not go there...

  9. #9
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    Guys, thanks so much for the responses. A couple of thoughts to add, though...

    If I put a TS with a long fence in the shop, and I have a bench (miter saw, workspace) along one long wall as planned, I basically can't walk between the saw and the bench (or barely). Plus I will never have anything that large in there to cut. The entry door is at one end of the shop on a long wall, and the long bench will be on the opposite long wall, so the TS has to be sort of centered close to the wall where the door is.

    I could put the bench along a short wall, but then I really have created a limitation that might affect me -- reducing my ability to cross-cut longer boards. Plus I have plans for those shorter walls (bench sander, DP, place to put a BS etc. I would love to have the weight, stability, smoothness and power of a cabinet saw, but the width of these beasts I see everywhere would be wasted on me and would interfere with mobility in my shop.

    I do get it about space under the extensions, but again, it's not really about storage, it's about mobility and not feeling cramped. Previously, I was actually looking for the benchtop or mobile TS with the smallest table. I won't be cutting big stuff. My work is small enough I actually looked at one of those little 4 inch tablesaws (and will probably get one, for the really small stuff).

    Just a few thoughts. I think I'll take Dave's idea and use some of the layouy programs and see what I can do.

    Thanks!

    Mark

  10. #10
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    I've never had a saw with a 50" table so no experience there. I have a G1023 on a mobile base. Left wing is cast iron. Right wing is a piece of laminate covered counter with an opening for a router plate and angle iron to keep it flat. I can rip 27" to the right and 10" to the left if I choose to. Unless I want to rip 4 X 8 sheets on a table saw (I don't) 30" or so rip capacity should be fine. A good saw guide and good blade will produce very good cuts on sheet goods and handling 4 X 8 sheets by myself is a bother. Better to put the sheets on a cutting table, cut 'em to size and clean up on the T. S. if needed. I made a nice flat assembly table with folding legs so i can move it from basement to garage to outside or whatever. Works for me. For me, an outfeed table that folds down would be more useful and something I'm considering.

  11. #11
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    Mark - There's always more than one way to skin a cat in wwing, but I rarely crosscut anything that my TS won't handle. For those rare occasions that I encounter a really long board, I pull my CMS off a shelf and make the cut with that, as opposed to leaving it setup full time....just another reason I prefer the TS-centered philosophy.

    Dave raises a good point....I do find myself short of work space often, and that's when the whole TS/router table/extension table/outfeed/workbench area is invaluable to me.
    Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

  12. #12
    I agree with most of what Dave says, except for the 52" rails. First off, it's overkill for what the OP plans to do. Plus, although you may be able to store a jointer under it, it's still there, probably in the way, when you are trying to use the jointer. It would be a great space saver in a bigger shop, but I don't see a place for it in the size shop the OP is putting together.

    Just my opinion.

  13. #13
    Couple o' thoughts, having had a benchtop, a Unisaw w/52" capacity, and now a Rigid hybrid.
    • Bought the Uni thinking it'd be great for cutting down 4x8 ply. It may be, but not for me: those things are heavy, awkward, and much easier to cut to rough dimension (for me) with circ saw and cheap guide. You can always do final trimming on the TS. Uni (probably any decent cabinet saw) was awesome, but I moved so it had to go.
    • Most cabinets are 24" deep, so if you agree with my above point, it is doubtful you'd need much more capacity than that. Bookcases are typically 12-16" deep, so again you'd be fine.
    • I had quite a bit of luck crosscutting with the table saw and a fence screwed to the miter gauge. would be even easier with a sled. IMHO, in a cramped space, I'd say forget a RAS or powered miter saw. (admission: I've only skimmed your post, so if you are doing on-site installs, then perhaps an SCMS would be useful.
    • Force yourself to think the 80.20 rule, plan for the 80% to be easy/convenient, and find ways to 'make due' the other 20%. I.e., the hand planes for the odd wide board, or a handsaw for the odd wide cross cut.
    • If you end up with a hybrid with cabinet mounted trunnions as someone else mentioned, the main noticeable difference is really just one of power and perhaps the fence depending on what you buy. The 3HP Uni went through 3" oak like it wasn't even there; haven't stressed out my hybrid yet, but it is not that often I am ripping 12/4 stock. When I do, I can probably slow down a tad on my hybrid.
    • The cabinet saws (whether full or hybrid) definitely have a smaller footprint and better DC than a contractor. worth paying more for IMHO. When I looked at the (better) jobsite saws, they still take up almost as much floor space in use, and they really don't take up much less space when they are folded up on their rolling stands. Plus they use a regular 'universal' motor, so you are essentially using a circular saw mounted upside down: loud, less powerful, and loud.
    • Be sure to check out models with riving knives..much easier to install/remove, so more likely you will be using them. Also avoids you having to go in and change your user name to something alluding to how many fingers you lost that one time your attention wandered.

  14. #14

    "place to teach my kids"

    These have all been great suggestions, I'll just add in my 2 cents.

    As far as kids go, depending on their age, to me the table saw seems too scary. I have a bandsaw and let my son use it, with supervision. It may be my illusion, but the bandsaw just seems much safer.

    Also, you mentioned you intend to make chairs. If you want to make something like a Chippendale sytle chair, or Queen Anne, a bandsaw would be just the ticket, and a table saw would make a great workbench. And the bandsaw can't be beat for making odds and ends. I know for cabinets, etc, it's just the opposite though.

    I can't help but think that the table saw you have now is just fine, and if you need another saw it would be something like a little bit bigger bandsaw. Just my opinions though.

  15. #15
    I had a Delta Shopmaster and Jet Proshop Hybrid, and now a Sawstop PCS.

    I believe if you stick with this 'hobby' you will ultimately want a cabinet saw. The only reason to go with a hybrid is if you really don't want to upgrade your power to 220v.

    I also think you might be well served having a mobile BENCH instead of - or in addition to - a mobile saw.

    Remember too that a tablesaw with the blade fully retracted and covered with plywood is a very good assembly table.

    Last, +1 vote for considering a bandsaw. It'll open up yr possibilities, and might be all you need.

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