Additional coats of stain don't darken pine

[Glenn Deans]

I like the forums here and have learned a lot, but finally had to post my question about this. I hope I'm just missing something very obvious here, but I'm having problems trying to match my replacement molding to what I already have in the house. The samples for Minwax and Cabot both match fairly well, but when I apply the first coat it's very light and no matter how many coats i try it never gets any darker for either brand.

I liked the Cabot's better than Minwax for the richer color and it's a thicker consistency, but I've tried putting the additional coats on anywhere from a few minutes from the first coat to letting it dry overnight. I apply the stain, wait ~10-15 min (which makes the Cabot very thick and tacky) and wipe off the excess as the instructions state.

I've tried regular pine 1x4's, sanded the exact same way with no sealers or pre-conditioners, and get the same results. Is this normal or am I missing something obvious? Wipe on. Wipe off. Repeat for darker color.

[Prashun Patel]

Those stains contain a varnish-like binder to help fix the pigment into the wood so the topcoat does not lift it out and cause bare spots. This binder also inhibits subsequent stain coats from penetrating. That's why you get diminishing returns with more coats.

I (being no expert) would not advise letting stain SOAK for more than a few minutes. If it gets gummy, you've waited too long. A rag soaked in mineral spirits should be able to remove most of the gum.

The right way to achieve a dark stain is to use a stain with a darker pigment (you can mix stains of the same brand).

The other way to do it is to use a DYE stain. These are sold in concentrated forms usually. You dilute them with water or alcohol to get a desired darkness. These contain no binder, which means when you apply subsequent coats, it will get darker. It also means you can lighten the color with a wet rag, and that you should seal the color in (typically with shellac) if you are planning to brush or wipe on a top coat that has a solvent that could dissolve the dye. The shellac, ironically, will also dissolve the dye, so it's best sprayed on - you can purchase a spray can of aerosolized shellac.

[Glenn Deans]

Thanks for the quick response. So if I don't get the shade I want on the first coat, I won't be able to darken it with additional coats? That's kinda goes against what the MFR says, but it does make sense from what I'm seeing.

So how do they get such dark colors on their pine samples in the store display?

[Prashun Patel]

A preconditioner partially seals the porous part of wood, like pine, which reduces unevenness or 'blotchiness' but also inhibits penetration and depth of color.

Sanding to fine grits is also a technique that people use to inhibit blotch, but this can also inhibit penetration. Conversely, sanding only to a coarse grit - like 120 or 150 can make your stain penetrate deeper and therefore a little darker.

The gel or thicker stains tend to sit closer to the surface of the wood. This can sometimes cause their color not to penetrate as deeply, but they also are less blotch prone.

Some other unconventional tricks that have worked for me:

- Heat the stain: It's flammable, so you gotta do this carefully. But this will make the solution more mobile and will improve depth of penetration marginally.

- Don't stir the stain. Let it sit, and then decant some of the thinner liquid on the top. The pigments will concentrate on the bottom, giving you a darker resulting solution. This will be less mobile, so you might want to heat this too before applying.

Honestly, though, any more it's easier and safer for me to use dye or to mix stains to achieve a desired depth.

Don't get hung up on those samples. I've never been able to replicate them either...

[glenn bradley]

If you want to have better control of the intensity of a color, I find dyes easier to work with. I generally use denatured alcohol as a carrier which allows more applications to darken things and rubbing with a DNA soaked cloth will lighten things. One thing to get used to with dyes is how dull an lifeless they appear until you top coat. As in all finishing; test board, test board, test board.

I do have some formulas and wood type/surface prep protocols that give me a desired result with stains and do use them as well. It took a few test boards to get it to a "known result" stage but, after that I use them confidently.

[Paul Cozzolino]

Glenn
What you can also try is toning the piece of pine. Apply a top coat wait to it sets up. Probably a day. Then add a darker pigment on top of the top coat. This may get your desired color. Dont forget you have to top coat your toning element also.

[Gordon Harner]

I have a couple of thoughts that may be of help. First, I would try a heavy bodied pigment stain that is almost a paint. I have been sucessful using ZAR stains that meet that criteria. Two, take a sample of the color that you want to match to a paint store that caters to professionals. The people in the store, preferably the manager, should be able to help. You have not mentioned how much molding is involved. The solutions will probably vary based on the quantity of material you need to finish.

[Scott Holmes]

Paul,
What you have described is a glaze, not a toner. Glazes are gel stain type color added between coats of clear finish.

Toners are colored clear finish; usually lacquer based, almost always sprayed.

Do not use varnish (especailly poly varnish) as the clear coat between coats of lacquer based toners... nasty stuff happens. I use shellac between toner coats.

[Neal Clayton]

what kinda age are we talking about on the other moldings and the original finish?

reason being: yellow pines darken with age quite a bit (they get more red), old linseed oil based varnishes darken with time as well. the only way to match new boards to old if that's the case is using shellac or a dye/toner for color as others mentioned.

a newly milled yellow pine board will never look like an old one, because the boards themselves are different.

[Glenn Deans]

The house was built in the mid-50's and the molding is original. However, I'm not entirely sure the original molding is pine since, to me, the grain looks more like oak and it does have a reddish tone to it.

I've tried the Minwax Early American, and while the color is darker and a closer match, it lacks the red tone. I'm about ready to call it close enough because I need to finish this trim so I can start the second phase of my remodel and get it done before school starts. I just don't think I'm ready to try something new like dyes. maybe try on some scraps and learn how to use them later, but not for this.

I do like the idea of mixing the stains and may give that a go as a more plausible alternative.

[Neal Clayton]

yeah, it's difficult at best. i've found picking a shellac color and top coat color and just going with enough coats board by board to make them as close as you can is about the best you can do. as the newer boards darken they may get darker than the rest as time goes on, too. so matched now may not match later. since shellac builds a film subsequent coats will make the boards darker, so it's easier than with a stain.

[bob ward]

if you trim is yellow pine or doug fir the pine you are buying today wil not stain the same.does it have a dark grain in it or an orange to it?if so you may have to stain it with two different color stains or custom mix them.this is mostly trail and error i have found .