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Thread: There's more than weeds growing in the lawn

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ashton View Post
    Honest question: are you being a troll...?
    I am offended. Me? A troll???

    Come on...
    I am never wrong.

    Well...I thought I was wrong once...but I was mistaken.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold Burrell View Post
    I am offended. Me? A troll???

    Come on...
    There appeared to be two possibilities and thus the question. To me the question had an obvious answer, unless you were trying to be difficult i.e. a troll, sh#$ disturber... There's a few here that are trying hard to be trolls so if I have you mistaken I am sorry.

    The obvious answer I am talking about is if an individual predator has a specific taste for human flesh has to die... I.e. it specifically targets humans and therefore goes and finds humans to kill and eat. Does research support such a notion in mountain lions? I would suspect in the vast majority of cases, no. Mountain Lions are very shy and don't like to be anywhere near humans unless a specific lion is in dire straights and therefore must be dealt with accordingly. But there are exceptions. I remember a cougar (canadian for mountain lion) that attacked a child at a rural Vancouver Island elementary school. Obviously it had to be killed because it had discovered the elementary school was a "fertile" hunting ground of "easy" prey and had lost it's fear of human development. Trapping and relocation wasn't an option because of the likely hood of it seeking out another elementary school to hunt...

    Unlike another cougar that was found hiding in the back of a small rural towns fire departments fire truck. It was tranquillised and relocated because it didn't pose a real threat to humans but in fact was desperate to get as far away as possible from people - so why kill it?

    Another cougar that was found in the parking garage of the Empress hotel in Victoria BC. It had to be killed when it bolted from the garage and crashed through the living room window of a friend of mines apartment and proceeded to tear up the living room. The risk of it tearing a person apart was too great therefore it was killed (Un-benounced to the hunters that followed it in to the apartment, my friend had barricaded herself in the bathroom when she heard the crash of the window pane).

    My brother lives in an area that is littered with black bears, cougars and wolves. He is constantly finding tracks throughout his property. Basically be smart and be cautious. He's lived there for over 13 years and has had no problems with them. But if some had there way they would all be wiped out because of idiotic irrational fears. Now if the bear(s) was always getting into everyones garbage cans should it be killed - of course not! Trap the bugger and relocate it to a very secluded area... What about a bear that is determined to get into a house - kill it! It's a clear danger to the people around.

    Many different predators but only one criteria for determining whether it needs to be killed. Does it pose a real threat to people?
    Last edited by Brian Ashton; 09-19-2010 at 8:17 AM.
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ashton View Post
    Ranchers are often unwilling to realise that they moved into the wolves and other carnivores territory - not the other way round. And are even less able to understand that the carnivores are doing what comes naturally - trying to survive!
    Your profile doesn't indicate where you live. Please let us know a general location, and whether it was ever populated by wolves or other carnivores.

    Or did settlers show up and find it devoid of any predatory wildlife?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ashton View Post
    We, as supposedly the more advanced animal, have an obligation to be smarter and work with the environment instead of simply grabbing the gun and or poison and wiping it out because it doesn't fit into our narrow minded perception(s) of how things should be.
    So your argument (distilled) is that this was a wild (feral) cat, doing what wild (feral) cats do, and shouldn't have been shot.

    Would either of the following articles change your perspective?

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...feralcats.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_cat

    SUMMARY of articles: Feral cats are a non-native species, preying on many native species. They are decimating our bird populations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ashton View Post
    It is such a basic concept and blows me away on how hard it is for people to grasp it.
    Indeed.

  4. #64
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    The trick is to throw a rug or blanket over the trap and the skunk stays calm. Although it wouldn't have had a happy ending here(for the skunk).

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Blue View Post
    The trick is to throw a rug or blanket over the trap and the skunk stays calm. Although it wouldn't have had a happy ending here(for the skunk).
    I have found that skunks won't spray when in a live trap.. Up to five of them now, and got one of the raccoons that took up residence in the insulation under my work shop. There is not much I can do with the skunks, I just drag the trap to the back of the yard, roll it over so the door falls down, and stays open when I flip the latch and watch the skunk run off and under the neighbors shed. I had caught a Raccoon a few nights ago, but they have very useful 'fingers' and it managed to pull in the folding rear section of the trap, and escape. I wired the back section closed to prevent that from happening again. The Raccoon I got last night, stayed in the trap all night. In the morning I dropped the trap in the trunk of my car, and drove it about 10 miles away to a park area, and released it where it would be very unlikely to find it's way back.. 25 - 40 years ago, I would have saved the time & fuel, and simply shot them all and buried the remains so they wouldn't stink up the yard. Unfortunately, we now live in a subdivision. We didn't move here, every one else did. If I fire a gun in my back yard now, I risk a visit from the local over reactive swat team, who would show up with every single piece of equipment they own. They have to use it, or risk losing it.. Click the Name Jonathan Logan and you'll know what I mean.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Thien View Post
    Your profile doesn't indicate where you live. Please let us know a general location, and whether it was ever populated by wolves or other carnivores.

    Or did settlers show up and find it devoid of any predatory wildlife?



    So your argument (distilled) is that this was a wild (feral) cat, doing what wild (feral) cats do, and shouldn't have been shot.

    Would either of the following articles change your perspective?

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...feralcats.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_cat

    SUMMARY of articles: Feral cats are a non-native species, preying on many native species. They are decimating our bird populations.



    Indeed.
    Personally I think you're nit picking with these questions, but I'll answer anyways.

    I grew up on the out skirts of Kamloops BC where there are bears, wolves, cougars and lots of rattle snakes. Had a family of bears try and join use for dinner at Shuswap lake campground one night. I then moved to Vancouver Island and again was surrounded by black bear, and cougars. Probably wolves to but you never saw them. Probably was stalked by a few cougars on my many hikes in the bush. So for the first 40 yeas of my life I've been in fairly close proximity to the outdoors. At present I live in australia where the wild life to worry about is more of the human kind.

    As if that sort of experience or any other actually matters... Intelligence is what's needed no matter where you live and that is severely lacking.

    For the next question... You're leaving out what I had also said previously - was that deliberate? I'll paraphrase it for you here. I said if you're going to exterminate a "pest" then do it right. Kill every last one of them quickly, humanely and permanently (I didn't go into detail on this because I thought it was obvious when I said what comes next). Instead of perpetuating cruelty disguised as doing good for the environment or more accurately simply for revenge after the fact with absolutely no hope of accomplishing anything of value unless you are incredibly obtuse.

    I'm all for eliminating introduced species but not by (insert your favourite adjective here) running around with guns and clubs getting off on it - cause that's all they're doing. As can be inferred by those making jokes about growing tomatoes with the carcass.

    If what ever country I will be living in in the future outlaws cats as a pest I have no problem with that but as I said above it needs to be done properly. You also have to stop the idiots from owning them before you can have any hope of eradicating them (that's part of the intelligence that I inferring above and you agreed with "indeed") Any attempt to even control them without the former firmly in place is as futile and ill conceived as trying to pushing water up hill with a rake. But! you get the opportunity to teach your kids that senseless killing is perfectly alright. Noting like bonding with your youngins over a carcass...

    So you seem to agree that there isn't much intelligence being exercised... as if it's me that isn't "Indeed" So my subtly condescending friend what's your suggestion on the subject?
    Last edited by Brian Ashton; 09-20-2010 at 11:00 AM.
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  7. #67
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    I'd suggest killing all of the cats...

    While we're at it, let's just take out the bunnies, too...

    Of course, if we do that, we'll need to find something else for people to lambast each other with their personal opinion on what's right and what's wrong...

    Maybe I'll just shoot the ellipses and be done with it^^^
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ashton View Post
    Personally I think you're nit picking with these questions, but I'll answer anyways.
    Thanks for being a good sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ashton View Post
    ...if you're going to exterminate a "pest" then do it right. Kill every last one of them quickly, humanely and permanently (I didn't go into detail on this because I thought it was obvious when I said what comes next)...
    Do you have a suggestion for a good way to kill 70 million feral cats spread across fifty states, every last one of them quickly, and humanely?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ashton View Post
    I'm all for eliminating introduced species but not by (insert your favourite adjective here) running around with guns and clubs getting off on it - cause that's all they're doing. As can be inferred by those making jokes about growing tomatoes with the carcass.

    If what ever country I will be living in in the future outlaws cats as a pest I have no problem with that but as I said above it needs to be done properly. You also have to stop the idiots from owning them before you can have any hope of eradicating them (that's part of the intelligence that I inferring above and you agreed with "indeed") Any attempt to even control them without the former firmly in place is as futile and ill conceived as trying to pushing water up hill with a rake. But! you get the opportunity to teach your kids that senseless killing is perfectly alright. Noting like bonding with your youngins over a carcass...

    So you seem to agree that there isn't much intelligence being exercised... as if it's me that isn't "Indeed" So my subtly condescending friend what's your suggestion on the subject?
    Suggestion on what subject?

    Are you asking what I think motivates hunters/fishers other than "getting off?"

    Or are you asking whether I think it was okay for Heather to shoot a feral cat before it killed more rabbits/birds?

    Maybe you're asking what I think about other SMC members deriding her?

    Or something else entirely?
    Last edited by Phil Thien; 09-20-2010 at 5:53 PM.

  9. #69
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Thien View Post
    So how do you feel about ranchers shooting wolves or coyotes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold Burrell View Post
    Or hunting down a mountain lion after it attacked your child?
    I am curious why the two of you want to know my answers to these questions. I can see two reasons. One is legitimate interest, and the other is a hope to trip me up and contradict myself. In light of the conversation so far, I cannot imagine another, though feel free to correct me. I see no harm in assuming it is the former.

    How do I feel about ranchers shooting wolves or coyotes? If a pack of wolves or coyotes is an immediate threat, then the rancher has the right to shoot the predators in defense of his herd. By an immediate threat, I would define that as worrying the herd or worse. There may be different situations where a demonstrable immediate threat exists, but I will freely admit I lack a full knowledge of all possibilities.

    As for hunting down a mountain lion after it attacked my child, my concern would be my child. Now, if the the appropriate authorities deemed there was a demonstrable public safety issue and that it was necessary to hunt the animal down, I would endorse it. If there was a reason to believe it was a "man-killer" (and I would like a zoologist who knows something about mountain lions to make that decision as a part of the appropriate authorities), that would constitute a demonstrable public safety issue. There very well may be others situations that would be deemed a public safety issue, but since my child has never been attacked by a mountain lion, I am working in a vacuum. Again, I don't have a full knowledge of all possibilities.

    Now I have a question or two for the questioners.

    All of this angst has stemmed from a particular, existent incident.

    How are these situations applicable to the incident that I found appalling? The ranchers shooting wolves and coyotes are driven by a profit motive (I hope). Wolves and coyotes are a threat to their livelihood, and they are taking both a preemptive and active strike against that threat. Justified or not, I do not see how this is remotely akin to someone enticing an animal in and killing it a month after something the cat killed the shooter didn't have a profit motive in. Whether the rabbits lived or died had no bearing on her livelihood. They were not domestic rabbits being raised for food or income. They were wild animals.

    As for the highly hypothetical mountain lion attacking my child scenario -- as I have said, I have never had my child attacked by a mountain lion, so I don't know my reaction. I do know my reaction to being attacked by an animal (okay -- it wasn't a mountain lion, and it wasn't a wild animal, but trust me, that really isn't any comfort. Teeth are teeth.) A person's child is not commensurate with wild rabbits under the deck.

    It seems to me the issue overlooked in these scenarios is the revenge/vengeance aspect and the apparent pleasure taken in it (the latter is definitely missing). That is what I object to. No more, no less.

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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Thien View Post
    Thanks for being a good sport.



    Do you have a suggestion for a good way to kill 70 million feral cats spread across fifty states, every last one of them quickly, and humanely?



    Suggestion on what subject?

    Are you asking what I think motivates hunters/fishers other than "getting off?"

    Or are you asking whether I think it was okay for Heather to shoot a feral cat before it killed more rabbits/birds?

    Maybe you're asking what I think about other SMC members deriding her?

    Or something else entirely?
    I already stated this... I think a good start is to ban them out right from anyone owning them. But since I've spent about 30 mins on the subject I'd say that I have reasonable confidence in intelligent people finding methods of dealing with the remaining cats in a humane and permanent fashion.


    For the second question. I think the general direction of what we (meaning you and me) are talking about should give you a good indication - don't you think. Personally I don't think you have any idea how to even start with such a problem other than what I have suggested...
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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Kennedy View Post
    Now I have a question or two for the questioners.

    All of this angst has stemmed from a particular, existent incident.

    How are these situations applicable to the incident that I found appalling? The ranchers shooting wolves and coyotes are driven by a profit motive (I hope). Wolves and coyotes are a threat to their livelihood, and they are taking both a preemptive and active strike against that threat. Justified or not, I do not see how this is remotely akin to someone enticing an animal in and killing it a month after something the cat killed the shooter didn't have a profit motive in. Whether the rabbits lived or died had no bearing on her livelihood. They were not domestic rabbits being raised for food or income. They were wild animals.
    (1) You're saying Heather "enticed" the cat into her yard in order to shoot it?

    Her exact words were "About a month later I was sitting at my desk and heard the cat in the neighbors yard, took out my Sheridan air rifle and opened the window, said meeeoow and the kitty dropped on the spot."

    The distinction is important. The way you paint it with the word "enticed" is pretty unsavory.

    It seems you mischaracterized what Heather said, why?

    (2) So you're saying it is okay for a rancher to protect his profit by shooting a wolf, but that it isn't okay for an individual to kill a non-native species that is attacking one or more native species?

    So you put profits above protection of the ecosystem?

  13. #73
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    I'm closing this thread.

    This thread has swayed far from the original posters intent. It has become argumentative with a touch of name calling thrown in.
    Please help support the Creek.


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