Unfortunately our stairs have a 90 degree turn in the middle with no landing. So that makes the possibility of sliding them down on a straight line (or two segments) next to zero.
[OP]
Member
Unfortunately our stairs have a 90 degree turn in the middle with no landing. So that makes the possibility of sliding them down on a straight line (or two segments) next to zero.
Member
Originally Posted by Rod Sheridan
That is 'cause your smarter than me!
As for the steps I just don't want someone to get excited about the new machine or so concerned about controlling it they don't realize they have a problem until they have 1000lbs of people and machine laying on the basement floor! Plenty of steps will be fine, some won't though.
Member
I went from a full combo machine back to separates except for the J/P. This combo makes perfect sense and as picky as I am about machinery performance, with the J/P combo there are no regrets.
[OP]
Member
Good advice Van.
The real problem I have now is that my current shop is space limited and in the basement. I am fairly sure I'll upgrade our house within the next 5-6 years when I've paid off the current mortgage.
I will most likely get a bigger shop and then I might regret getting a combo.
So the dilemma is either I get a combo now and hope that i don't regret it when I'm not space constrained, or live with what I have now and upgrade later to stand alone machines.
Of course it seems hard to live with my current planer...
Last edited by mreza Salav; 09-13-2010 at 8:29 PM.
Member
Two more pieces to the puzzle. First, I am not gonna comment further on getting any machine into the basement since it means little without seeing the machine nor the stairs. I will say that where there is a will there is a way, though it may need to be a big will, or maybe two "American" football players NAMED Will!
I think if I were in your shoes I would get the Hammer. It is a fine machine, will hold its resell better than the Asians (though it still may have a higher cost to own for a specific period of time since it has a higher initial price) AND you are much more likely to fall completely in love and be happy to keep it later even if you have 2000 ft^2 of shop at your new home. Plus, even though it is a combo with a 90* trun in the stairs it may well be easier to get down than a 8" jointer with ~7ft tables with less disassembly. Maybe you could get a break on a "kit" so you could move it down and assemble it yourself the first time...
Member
Mreza
You will not be sorry you have a combination even if you move to a
new shop. It is definitely not a compromise (in jointing or planing),
as long as you get one of the brands mentioned.
One other nice feature of the combo is that if you change to a Shelix
head, you only have one head to change.
You will love working with this class of machinery, makes you feel good!
You can take them down a stairway easier if you take the tables off.
I can not speak for Hammer/Felder, but I took the tables off of my
minimax, tied it on to a "sled" and slid it down a 2x10 that was temporarily
fastened to my stairs. Worked slick. Never looked back.
Good Luck
John Morrison
Contributor
Six years is a pretty significant period of time. I bet you could get the A3-31 and resell it after you move. In the end, you probably would have gotten your money's worth. And if you really like it, you get a six year head start.
But it is easy to spend other people's money. You could save significant money going with the Grizzly. I do not go into debt to buy tools. But if Felder offered financing, I am sure I would have an A3-31 in my basement.
Member
I have found that 75%-80% of the time I'm using my Hammer for jointing, so it isn't like I'm constantly switching back and forth. Once I get my rough stock thickness planed I'm pretty much done planing for extended periods and I leave my unit in jointing mode all the time. Very nice to put a straight edge on material when ripping stock.
Also, with the Hammer's table extensions on both ends I feel very comfortable jointing 6-8 foot lengths, which is the longest pieces I joint. Most pieces (I'm building cabinets) get cut down to three feet before jointing anyway.
I can't see ever replacing my Hammer, even if I had the space. If I had gobs of money (unlikely) and extended my shop (just as unlikely) I'd just get a dedicated planer and keep the Hammer.
Member
I have a 15 inch J/P It does a good job. I slide the jointer fence all the way over to the front of the machine and leave it on the machine when planing. Although it doesnt take long to change from jointing to planing it seems like it does, especially cranking the planer table up. It appears that if it wasnt for the dust collection hood the planer could be on the side of the jointer and no change over would be required. My old Ryobi AH115 J/P was like that.
Member
The J/P combos are by far the best option for tight spaces. I would argue that they are a great value too. At least up to the Hammer A3-31 from a price perspective. If you go any bigger or higher end then you are likely in a production environment or just have the money to do so and value is not much of a concern. I just started using the A3-31 in June. A deal came up on a full combo so I sold it and upraded to a full Felder combo. I wouldn't have considered selling my Hammer for anything less. The 12" jointer was so nice to have that I found myself able to use it in more situations and successfully jointed/planed very figured woods. They are loud. Just the nature of knives. The Hammer/Felder lines now have Byrd heads as an option. Are they worth the money? Only 1 person can answer that and that is you I found. Lots of advice and opinions but there is only 1 that matters. You should go look at and use one to get a full appreciation of the things you like and don't like. For example, some people can't stand the time it takes to lift the planer table to height. Maybe a little annoying to me at times but I didn't find it to be a big deal. I have more time than money. If I was doing this for a living then the time may be worth it to upgrade to power.
I have a basement shop. It is very easy to get the machines up and down the steps. I have designed a full system to do so though and pulling the A3 up the stairs was a challenge. I found some flaws in my method that hopefully I have resolved before trying to put a 1000lbs piece down it. Rod was very creative in getting his machine downstairs and I used some of his concepts. If you want more info on how I did/am doing it then I would be happy to send drawings of each piece and pictures. Took me about 3 nights to build the sled, rails, and winch assembly. About $250-300 in materials including the winch. You could easily do without the power winch and get by with come-a-longs for about $100. Beats the $200/hr the rigging companies wanted and I have something I can reuse when I sell my house and need to get the machines out.
[OP]
Member
Frankly, I've never seen a combo machine close (let alone using it).
The comment that these machines (with straight knives) are loud is the first I've heard. I have a straight knife jointer and, although not quiet, it certainly is nowhere near the screaming loud Dewalt planer I have and I can live with that.
I really would like to see a Hammer and a lower end combo like the Jet 12". I have seen only good reviews for Hammer A3-31 and almost all reviews for the Jet 12" combo are positive too (the only complain I've seen is with the fence). The Hammer must be a LOT better to justify 2.5X price tag on it (vs. the Jet). It's not that money is the big factor, but no-one has unlimited money. For me (as a hobbyist) the value must be there to justify the expense.
I have moved temporarily to US (Chicago) for 1 year. Does anybody know of a showroom/school/ or a creeker where I can go and see one of these machines (preferably in action)?
Member
I don't know about in action but Chi town has (3) Berlands, (2) Woodcrafts and a Rockler, one of them is bound to have a Jet. Hopefully you can find 2 Creekers that live side by side that have the Jet and the Hammer!
I would suggest you look at videos about both before you see them that way you know what you want to look at and feel. A couple of things I would suggest is pay attention to the fence and fence mount, everyone of the fences will deflect, you just have to SEE how much and if it is OK with you. Fence movment also. Do a full change over including moving the planer table all the way up then back out of the way of the dust chute. I have seen "changeovers" look much easier when the planer table was never raised to a "normal" planing depth after being down for jointing. Sure you may plane something 5" thick sometimes but usually you are going to be in the 3/4 to 5/4 range.
I think you have identified the key, once you are set on a 12" J/P you have to decide if the jump to MM or Felder Group over Jet, Rikon and Grizzly are worth it to you.
Member
Van,
Do you consider fence deflection a problem when jointing? Perhaps I'm missing something, but when I'm jointing and moving the board perpendicular to the cutting knives, a bit of deflection wouldn't seem to matter. It doesnt affect the cutting depth of the joint - maybe the cut marks aren't perfectly perpendicular to the length of the board, but they are going to be sanded out any way.
Maybe deflection is causing some warping/twisting of the fence so the cut isn't perpendicular? Is there something else?
Roger
Member
From a technical perspective it is not as it does not seem to impart any twist just lateral deflection. However, I am not alone when I say it bothers me. I am used to cast fences that are extremely solid and it really bugs me when the fence deflects, again not an issue but I have learned if you are not confident with a machine not only does it gnaw at you but it can effect your work. I just don't like it...
Contributor
http://www.feldergroupusa.com/us-us/classes.html
Spend a day making furniture in the Felder workshop in Chicago........After that you'll have a better feel for the machine types.....Regards, Rod.
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