First "Commissioned" Project (Tudor Door)....Questions

[Will Hon]

So, my boss at my day job found out that I do woodworking as a hobby on the side. He asked me if I would be interested in building a Tudor Style Storm Door for the front of his "extremely nice" home. He wants me to put together an expense sheet + labor on what it would take for me to do it. Again, I am only building the frame (like in the second image), and he is purchasing the glass for it.

He has a doorway similar to this one:


This is what he wants it too look like (this is not a tudor arch of course)


QUESTIONS:
What would you charge to do such a project? (On top of Materials)
What wood would you recommend using? (Kansas City, MO)
What books/links/resources would you recommend for building doors such as this? --obviously there will be some special preparations for holding the glass in place, etc.

WHAT ELSE AM I MISSING/NOT THINKING OF???

[David Prince]

I don't mean to sound harsh, but maybe you are in over your head if you are asking these questions.

This type of project could have the potential to go bad for you!

[Bruce Page]

I'm not seeing a second image.

[Will Hon]

David, no offense taken. Its not really a question of having the "right" tools for the job, as I don't think its anything I cant handle with a planer/jointer/tablesaw/mortiser/drill press/router... unless i'm mistaken? I would think the only "kind of question" that would make sound incapable of pulling off the project would be:

"what wood would YOU use?"

and the obvious answer is Teak, but.... that obviously an exotic and subsequently expensive hardwood, and maybe someone knows a cheaper alternative that when treated/sealed properly would get the job done. I have personally mostly dealt with Walnut and QS Oak because they are relatively cheap here. Obviously Oak is an extremely porous wood that would not do well in our wet climate.

Other than that I am really just trying to gauge what most other hobby or professional woodworkers alike would bill for their labor on such a project.

[David Prince]

A door like this could move around alot and if it isn't put together correctly could cause pre-mature failure. There isn't a lot of room for mistake and your boss has to live with the consequences. Now, if the boss isn't happy... you know what happens next.

I have never seen your work or shop, so I am not judging your skill level or tool arsenal, but if you haven't done a door like this or have a good idea of how you are planning to do it, it isn't just one of those projects that you just do and hope for the best.

Bottom line... Exterior wooden doors have the potential for failure on multiple levels and aren't considered entry level projects!

Tell your boss you will build him a home entertainment center instead.

[Prashun Patel]

Is it an option to choose wood to match the existing door? I'd choose the wood species, color and finish based on that.

IMHO, the challenging part won't be making the door.

The hardest part (for me) would be making the jamb and finishing to taste.

I'd make sure I could do all of those parts first b4 committing.

Can't help you on the pricing.

[Will Hon]

David... thanks for your statements that have so far managed to answering so many errr... questions?

-Will

[Will Hon]

The hardest part (for me) would be making the jamb and finishing to taste.

I'd make sure I could do all of those parts first b4 committing.

Prashun,

X - I think the gameplan would be to make a full sized template of the doorway (especially the tudor arch) out of mdf/hardboard and site verify that the template fits the doorway.

X - Then mill all of the pieces, joining the rails and stiles using mortise and tenons... possibly pinning them

X - The top "Arched" Rail would be left oversized and fitted perfectly to the door via the template and a flush trim bit in the ol' router.

[Prashun Patel]

The top "Arched" Rail would be left oversized and fitted perfectly to the door via the template and a flush trim bit in the ol' router.

Yeah, but how does it connect to the existing door frame? That frame is likely trimmed out and wide enough only for a single exterior door. When they put in storm doors, they are (usually) contained in their own frame and jamb. How will that assembly look and be connected to the rest of the jamb? I'm not an expert; perhaps this is not a problem.

[Tom McMahon]

In order to price a job like this you need to calculate a shop rate for your shop. The shop rate should include all your expenses to run the shop, electric, rent, supplies, labor etc. If you really want to make money doing this you need to also include things like return on investment and opportunity costs. Once you have your shop rate it's easy to bid a job.

shop rate x hours + materials + profit = bid

My shop rate is $45 per hour. I would estimate at 20 hours. Guessing $200 for material.

45x20+200+10%=$1210
Remember you are not competing with the big box stores you are doing custom work it should cost more unless you are doing the client a favor, you should still get your real costs back and they are more than you think if you figure it out for real.
As to material many high end exterior doors are made from mahogany, white oak, teak, red elm are all water and rot resistant.

[Richard Wolf]

I think Tom has it about right from a price point. It looks like a $1200 door. I think you should be using mahogany of some type. The key to doors are deep mortise and tenons. Here's a tip, once you settle on a price, forget about the money, do the best job you can and take as much time as you need. The quality of the door is what counts. It is no excuse to say, "I only got $1200 for the door so I didn't do the really best I could."
Good luck with it.

Richard

[Peter Pedisich]

Will,

I made a storm door and side light, though not an arch-top like you are, and the time that went into it was 60% design and planning, 10% construction, and 25% painting, and 5% hanging.
I put in more than 20 hours, as my shop time is never in big chunks, and set-up each time is a time killer.
Storm window glass you may want tempered (I did) and it's big $$.
How will you secure the glass/screens and make it easy to swap?
For joinery I used big deep loose tenons - extra long router bit needed - more $.
Quality hinges/latches/hardware is more $$.

I bought a scratch-n-dent hollow core door at Lowes to have a flat worktable, which is essential, and it worked well.

Oh, I used white pine, but for staining I'd use Mahagony, cypress, or some tropical hardwood.


I'd do it all again, but I'd charge 5 times as much this time.

Good luck,

Pete

[Roger Jensen]

I think I'd have to agree with David on this one. If you haven't built doors before and aren't familiar with wood movement, door stresses, etc. I don't think you know what you're getting into. I'd thank him for considering you for the job but you don't want to risk something going wrong. Personally, I rather do something I was 99% sure I could do a great job on the first one.

He may consider you a hobbyist now, but as soon as you quote him $1200 you're a professional woodworker and he'll expect professional results.

Just my two cents - he's your boss!

[george wilson]

I have a large 19th.C. carpentry book that says"NEVER GUARANTEE AN OAK DOOR." When I first came to Colonial Williamsburg as the Master Musical Instrument Maker,my first assignment was to make a large harpsichord for the Music Teacher's Room.

I bought some beautiful quartered white oak boards about 16" wide. (Many harpsichords were oak veneered with mahogany in 18th.C. England. They no doubt had properly seasoned oak,acclimated to the climate.) I had them in my shop,but every week they would move in a different way. Curving one way,then another every week. This oak was kiln dried. I hadn't time to mess around,so I used mahogany instead.
,and veneered it with figured mahogany panels.

I know Colonial Williamsburg has made many exterior doors from mahogany. I recommend you use it.

[keith micinski]

How on earth is this guy ever going to learn how to make a door if all you guy's keep saying is "if you don't have experience then don't do it"? This web site was designed to be a source of information, not a source of telling people what they can and cannot do. He asked three specific questions and one open for opinions. Even if you guys don't think he is up to doing this project, answering his questions might help other people who are and have some of the same concerns. And since when did making a storm door, arch or not, become the hardest task in the world? I would think 800 is a more reasonable figure considering you are using this as a learning experience and could also add this to your portfolio to show people what you are capable of. If you use Mahogany or Oak I would suggest using a finish from General Finishes called Outdoor Oil. Using something that is going to buildup like spar varnish is a mistake. The oil finish only takes 20 minutes every two years to clean up and wipe on as opposed to sanding. As far as links go I don't really have any.