Possible answer: the SawStop guy wants a higher profit margin.Originally Posted by Greg Book
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Possible answer: the SawStop guy wants a higher profit margin.
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I fail to understand this obsession with "made in USA" being stamped on something. Even if something is "made" in the United States, the parts and materials are likely sourced from all over the world.
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I think the JDS Multi-Router is.
Member
Thats not necessarily true. FTC has requirements for that phrase. If something is advertised as "Made in the USA" it must have all, or virtually all, of it made in the USA and that includes components.
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.shtm
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To be fair I am not very knowledgeable about those regulations. Perhaps they are stricter than I have been assuming.
...but I still don't care where it's made (all else being equal, that is).
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Yes, and it's a dandy tool. A bit salty for some, though.
As far as the discussion about stationary tools, I can't think of many, and i'm one of the people who probably would get labeled as a grizzly basher. It is undeniable that grizzly and the other importers have made hobby woodworking at a higher level (equipment-wise) affordable for us. I'm in that category - I couldn't afford (or at least my marriage couldn't afford) new or lightly used industrial equipment, and if a TS was inflation adjusted vs. what they were in 1993, I'd probably have a cheap contractor's saw or no saw at all instead of a delta hybrid (which, coincidentally is much lower quality than all of the older serious good-quality contractor's saws I've seen. More features, but definitely less quality).
Where I think we've really seen a service is in large planers and jointers, and especially in a really good set of usable bandsaws in the 18 inch range. They can resaw large boards and, have nice features and can be found in the low 1000s.
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It means one of your countrymen has a job making something for you. At least that's what I'm told. I really don't care where my stuff is made. If its quality, does what I need at a price I'm willing to pay, who cares?
We just had a discussion at work about this. From what we're told, the only reason some China stuff is crap is because they have sort of an employment bubble going on over there. Companies keep offering more money or benefits so workers keep jumping ship and never stay in one place long enough to become skilled at what they are doing. Apparently there are a few musical instrument places (like Behringer city) that treat their employees well so they stick around and their products are of a nice quality (I have a Bugera amp myself and it is very nice). How true this is, I don't know... its just what I was told.
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The two flagship USA brands, Delta and Powermatic machinery, are now predominately imported from China. (parts or whole) Their prices still above other imported brands, which may roll off the same assembly line. Delta/Powermatic count on "the label and the color" to help bring a premium price. In 1985, Rockwell's first-ever four-post planer (RC-33, 13") had a list price of over $1500 plus shipping. The stand was optional. In 1985 I grossed about $50 a day.
There were only small discounts, and rarely a used one at that time. Grizzly had a new 15" clone planer for about $695, but was an import upstart in the early '80s, and unproven as to quality. So, I was elated to find a barely used RC-33 for $900 in the Kansas City Star classifieds. The next day my pregnant wife and I drove 6 hrs. round trip to haul the planer home in the trunk of my old '72 Monte Carlo. That planer (made in Brazil by Invicta) remained the most expensive machine in my shop for almost 25 years. But, it did earn it's keep on a regular basis. That Rockwell paid for itself when other machines did not.
My only import machine that will remain, is a $400 gloat Woodtek 3hp shaper. (also from KC) It runs smooth as silk and has fine fit and finish, in spite of those John Deere colors. The Grizzly drum sander vacated when the Woodmaster came in! And it is only a matter of time before the ShopFox 20" planer makes way for a Delta/Invicta RC-51 20"!
Ad 1985 RC33 95.jpg
It's a very Global Economy 25 years after I bought my first non-Sears woodworking machine. (Emerson has cast lots of aluminum since then) We woodworking Americans still have a choice: either buy new Asian stuff at prices that can't be beat, OR buy older, pre-Reagan Era machines. Woodworking imports only add a drop in the bucket to the huge U.S. trade deficit with China. Grizzly is not the main culprit! But, I have always wondered why WallyWorld has a McBurger's and not Stir-fried Rice.
Last edited by Chip Lindley; 09-23-2010 at 4:23 PM.
[/SIGPIC]Necessisity is the Mother of Invention, But If it Ain't Broke don't Fix It !!
Contributor
Chip, it seems that even the machine you bought in the early eighties was an import-a Brazilian one as opposed to a Chinese or Taiwanese unit that you buy today. Clearly it is possible to buy a machine import or otherwise if you are willing to pay enough. To translate your eighties experience, your $ 900 then was equal to $50 x 18 days of pay. If today you make $ 78k annually then 18 days of salary translates to $ 5400 (=18 days *$78000/260days). I am sure if many people were to pay that type of money for a machine there still would be manufacturers left in the US (to say nothing of Brazil). I for one would not, because though emotionally I may want to buy a made in US machine, on a more pragmatic level I do know that the China/Taiwan offerings from a reputable brand (such as Grizzly) is probably going to be OK. And when the price difference is so high I am willing to take a chance.
As far as you example of the Wallyburger, it really depends on your target audience--maybe where you are in Missouri fried rice may not sell, but out here in California they sell egg rolls along with hot dogs at the ball park.
Contributor
The Delta Unisaw is not 100% made in the USA: http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/...n+The+USA.aspx
I will buy whatever product has the highest degree of quality @ my budget for that tool. There are many US manufacturers who have figured out that if they make good tools people will buy them (Lie Nielsen, Incra, etc.).
Member
They can be absolutely strict but if they aren't enforced then they just get ignored. New Balance is a good example of this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36476797...s-us_business/ I recall Leonard Lee writing in one of the Lee Valley newsletters that they had been approached by a Chinese manufacturer who said they could label tools as being made in whatever country Lee Valley wanted. Considering the Walmarts of the world don't have any qualms[*] about selling children's toys covered in lead paint and who knows what else I doubt they'd get hung up on whether a tool with a Made in USA sticker really was.
* When a particular item is recalled they stop selling it but they do nothing proactive (testing, cracking down on suppliers, etc.) which, at least to me, means they are fine selling it as long as they get caught.
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You guys aren't old enough to remember but at one time "made in the USA" had the same undertones of schlocky quality that most of you think made in China or wherever does today.
At one time America had a large workforce willing to work for lower wages than did continental European and English workers. So off to the colonies went production.
Things change, the world get larger and smaller, and there will always be someone willing to work for less money.
Contributor
Robust lathes (turnrobust.com) are not only one of the best bowl lathes out there, they are made, almost entirely, in the State of Wisconsin.
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New Economy -- U.S. designs, sells, finances. Asia manufactures.
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My Clearvue Cyclone was made right down the mountain in South Carolina. I don't know if they're still making them, though, as I haven't seen much of them. I went down and toured the place. I enjoyed it.
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