0-1 for a saw tooth puncher?

[David Weaver]

Having seen some of the home brew tooth punchers, I'm looking more along the lines of something I can put on a bench and strike.

I have O1 stock sitting around. I'm thinking about putting together something on a pivot filed to a 60 degree bevel to match saw files.

It would likely be 1/4" O1 hardened and tempered, with an O1 plate below the saw and punch filed out with a taper saw file to the same 60 degree angle. It would cut the teeth by being struck with a drilling hammer.

For those who have trouble visualizing, think something like Harry's saw toother, but instead of having a lever and an eccentric, just something pivoting on a bolt with the business end struck by a hammer - no lever.

Questions for you guys who have metal skills:
1 ) will that punch a hardened saw plate
2 ) if it won't, what should I be looking for metal-wise to do it?
3 ) if it does work, how much clearance should there be between the top part (filed as a 60 degree angle, like one big wide saw tooth) and the bottom (taper filed with a recess to accept the part from the top).

If I could find a foley 385 with ratchet bars locally, I would just get it, but the only one I've seen was selling with an entire sharpening shop, and it wasn't clear which ratchet bars would be included.

Plus, it's probably something I'd use three times a year.

[george wilson]

01 should be fine for that little use. We had an old 1940's "Burro" brand tooth puncher. It had a triangular blade about 1/2" on each side,so you could rotate it to a fresh corner. We reground the end of the punch only a few times I can recall,and the end of the die. I could not tell what steel it was.

[David Weaver]

I've not punched a plate before, so I'm guessing on whether or not a 4 pound drilling hammer will punch a tooth with a moderate whack, esp. since the foley toothers only have 1/4th horsepower. I'd assume it will comfortably, but I have a couple of junk saws to try it on.

I'll make sure I never use that awful #7 that I got last week on such a device.

At straw temper, I'm hoping for there to be enough toughness in the O1, even if it has to be ground. It should be well harder than most pre-hardened 1095 steel and old saw plates.

[Trevor Walsh]

I was reading a chart somewhere about tonnage needed to punch different diameters through steel plate of varying thickness, I think for 1/8 inch plate a 1/4" hole took something like 4 tons? I can't remember I'll try to find it. If you're punching small teeth or teeth in thin .035" or less stock I think you will be fine. if your capabilities allow it I'd recomend mabye an aluminum base with a fence and magnets to hold the plate. and bushings of your hardened O1 punch/die that can move in a holder. maybe some kind of spring on the punch so that it pulls the punch out of the die.

I also saw a lever operated saw toother that was home made. Also look at Eccentric Toolworks blog, he has a flypress with home made toothing setup.

[george wilson]

I recommend dark straw,lest you have a corner break off. If you got the punch thoroughly hard during hardening,dark straw will give you a hardness of ABOUT 57-58 RC. The best 1095 saws are at 52 RC.

THE most important thing about what you can get away with is having an extremely rigid way of holding the punch,and keeping it aligned with the die.

[David Weaver]

I recommend dark straw,lest you have a corner break off. If you got the punch thoroughly hard during hardening,dark straw will give you a hardness of ABOUT 57-58 RC. The best 1095 saws are at 52 RC.

THE most important thing about what you can get away with is having an extremely rigid way of holding the punch,and keeping it aligned with the die.

I was assuming that I would have to make wooden or metal cheeks that went about half the length of the plate that had the punch on the end to make sure that it only traveled straight up and down. The wood would have to be something ultra hard, but I have that on hand. Either that, or brass (which I also have on hand).

I'm still hoping to find some commercial tool that's most of the way there (some of the laminate flooring cutters look like they may be adaptable), but I haven't found anything where I feel like it'd be worth the effort.

[David Weaver]

I was reading a chart somewhere about tonnage needed to punch different diameters through steel plate of varying thickness, I think for 1/8 inch plate a 1/4" hole took something like 4 tons? I can't remember I'll try to find it. If you're punching small teeth or teeth in thin .035" or less stock I think you will be fine. if your capabilities allow it I'd recomend mabye an aluminum base with a fence and magnets to hold the plate. and bushings of your hardened O1 punch/die that can move in a holder. maybe some kind of spring on the punch so that it pulls the punch out of the die.

I also saw a lever operated saw toother that was home made. Also look at Eccentric Toolworks blog, he has a flypress with home made toothing setup.

I thought about making something complicated where I could vary rake and have replaceable wear parts, but by the time I figured on how I would put it together, it'd be cheaper to wait until I find a foley toother.

Simple is key because I want cheap, small, and easy to make. I only really ever file two angles into saws - 5 degrees and 15 degrees. I also usually file relaxed rake at 15 degrees into the first couple of inches of a rip saw, but it's not really necessary, just a preference, and even at that, a whole 5 degree rake rip tenon could have the effective rake of the first three inches of teeth changed to 15 with one pass of a file, which even if following the unadulterated teeth for sport (or anal retentiveness leading you to believe that it would make a difference in the saw's performance) would take less than five minutes on a joinery saw.

I've filed teeth into several bare plates, so maybe it would be smarter just to do that when needed and wait for a foley toother with carriers to come around for $200 or $300. What irritates me about filing teeth into saws that aren't worth much is that you can easily waste an entire file, and on a bigger saw, it's a two-session activity. Each time I do it, I get faster and more even with it, though, and it's good practice for reshaping teeth on bum saws, anyway.

I'm hoping someone is going to come up with some smart and cheap idea.

I really liked harry's design (that may be the lever operated design you're referring to), but that's above my pay grade given that my metalwork stops at anything beyond hacksaw, belt sander, grinder and file (no welding, and no machining or super precision machine drilling).

[David Weaver]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...toother&page=2

Just for discussion purposes, harry's design. The more I look at it, the more I like it. I don't think there's anything on it that I couldn't file or drill, and the only thing I'd have to do is rob the handle off my loading press.

[Wes Grass]

You have a loading press? There's more than likely enough leverage and strength there, if it's a closed frame/toggle link type like an RCBS, to notch saw teeth. Might be making a die to thread in would be more work though.

[george wilson]

Harry,I see my post vanished!! Anyway,a nice,small,simple means of punching teeth,indeed. I have no means to do that now that I'm retired(unless I run back down town). I might make one like it if you don't mind. As crowded as I am,it would be a handy little device to clamp in a vise and use.

Oh! I see my post was in the other tooth punching thread!!

[Trevor Walsh]

You can do a lot with a drill press, files and bolts. THIS guy makes precision stuff with a router. I'll do a drawing of what I'm thinking of and post it.

[jerry nazard]

You have a loading press? There's more than likely enough leverage and strength there, if it's a closed frame/toggle link type like an RCBS, to notch saw teeth. Might be making a die to thread in would be more work though.

Or, modify an existing die you don't load for anymore?

Great idea, Wes!!!

[David Weaver]

I think the leverage (or the ratio of handle movement to the movement of the ram) is wrong on a reloading press, but I do like the setup they have and the way they eject primers is ideal. There's also the trouble of actually fitting the saw plate in them, at least on the ones that are strong enough (i.e., not the little open face Lee press, though I have nothing against lee and my press is one of the closed Lees).

I would love to find an industrial punch version of that with the right leverage and the ram coming from the top (maybe unlikely) that I could modify.

Harry's idea might still be easier for me if it's hammered instead of on an eccentric - less semi-precision filing for those of us without machine tools to do.

George, if I cobble one together and you make one, then maybe we won't compare pictures