Ebay Cyclone

[Alan Schaffter]

Oh, Phil!

I'd rather see you vent (pun intended) about the (rediculous, wasted $, etc.) idea to put an expensive cartridge filter in place of the upper bag on a single stage DC with NO preseparator!!!

A valid shoot-out is probably not going to happen unless a benefactor with considerable resources steps forward (it will be a cold day in _ _ ll before any DC/cyclone manufacturer does). I think you will never have an accurate answer as to how much of what makes it past your baffle or any cyclone unless the gov't or a university spends some big bucks. And to what end and for who? Industry doesn't attempt the folly of trying to recycle the air. Economics and physics are the reasons industry vents to bag houses located external to the factory.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that my filters are clogging over time. As to how much is a result of the the cyclone design, ductwork design, pushing physics to the limit, or poor operator technique, I can't say. I suspect if I was more careful about not turning off my machines (which closes my autogates) as quickly as I do, the separation would be better due to better (consistant) velocity through the cyclone.

I think every single cyclone or other separator designed for woodworking passes some dust. Despite the claims by some that they don't get any dust in their filter stack cleanout after using the machine for XX months and very little after cleaning it, I bet they never see a fair amount of really fine stuff that has become permanently embedded in the filter media where it is reducing CFM (that is fairly easy to measure).

A lot of what we see is obvious, even to non-engineers, some of it is not. Look at how many people here and on other forums don't understand the concepts and differences between CFM and SP. I am an engineer, I took a considerable amount of ME courses, but my undergraduate degree is not in ME but I'm pretty good at analyzing this stuff. My comment about the Ebay vendor is based on his responses to me (more than I quoted), and the fact it took him awhile to incorporate features like the neutral vane, spiral inlet ramp etc. that have been part of cyclone designs for many years and not just Bill's design. Others like Donaldson-Torit have had them for years also. Speaking of concepts, how many folks know the (helical) spiral inlet ramp found on ClearVue, other cyclones, and in Bill's spread sheet, is only an approximation? How many know a helix can not be made from a flat sheet without deforming it considerably? The one in Bill's spread sheet is a mathematical planar approximation provided by a prof at Cornell.

[Noah Katz]

Steve Knight uses a ClearVue on his CNC router where he does plenty of MDF and has plugged at least one filter stack. I think he is back to bags now.

Sorry, but that sure seems like a weak and self-serving attempt to discredit a competitor.

No one is claiming that a Pentz cyclone is 100% efficient, but I've read of many saying that their filters collect a cup or so of dust per many barrels of chips.

And anyone can quickly clog filters by letting the barrel get full, and I've also read of many instances of just that.

[Phil Thien]

Sorry, but that sure seems like a weak and self-serving attempt to discredit a competitor.

No one is claiming that a Pentz cyclone is 100% efficient, but I've read of many saying that their filters collect a cup or so of dust per many barrels of chips.

And anyone can quickly clog filters by letting the barrel get full, and I've also read of many instances of just that.

First, I don't see myself as a competitor to ANY true cyclone. They will out separate me left/right/up/down.

I have problems with statements like "no one is claiming a Pentz cyclone is 100% efficient, but I've read of many saying their filters collect a cup or so of dust per many barrels of chips."

My problems are: (1) There is an implication there that a Pentz design separates better than competing cyclones, and there is no evidence to support that. (2) We don't even have enough information to evaluate the statement independently. That is, I've seen numerous posts showing an empty filter cleanout. But, the fine dust doesn't hang around in the cleanout (it is in the pleats of the filter). And we don't know how much the cyclone is used, and what types of tools from which is collects.

Let's face it, there are a lot of woodworkers out there that post pictures of their fancy dust collection stuff but very few pictures of their woodworking projects. How much are they actually using that cyclone? Even if they work wood a few hours a week, well, that isn't a very exhaustive test of a cyclone. Multiple bits of anecdotal evidence does not equal data.

The entire point of me posting wasn't to push my baffle, but to reinforce that the eBay cyclone probably isn't too bad and may be a worthwhile alternative to expensive cyclones.

I'm very sorry you saw it as an attack on ClearVue. It was not intended that way.

[Phil Thien]

Sorry, but that sure seems like a weak and self-serving attempt to discredit a competitor.

I've re-read my post and I honestly don't see it as anything but a call for more testing before we crown one cyclone design as superior to the others.

As I stated above, I submit that my baffle won't win (although it would be interesting and I think worthwhile to test it along with the others).

[Phil Thien]

Oh, Phil!

I'd rather see you vent (pun intended) about the (rediculous, wasted $, etc.) idea to put an expensive cartridge filter in place of the upper bag on a single stage DC with NO preseparator!!!

We're in complete agreement. Pretty much completely agree with everything in this post, but I'll comment further anyhow.

A valid shoot-out is probably not going to happen unless a benefactor with considerable resources steps forward (it will be a cold day in _ _ ll before any DC/cyclone manufacturer does). I think you will never have an accurate answer as to how much of what makes it past your baffle or any cyclone unless the gov't or a university spends some big bucks. And to what end and for who? Industry doesn't attempt the folly of trying to recycle the air. Economics and physics are the reasons industry vents to bag houses located external to the factory.

Well, I do think there would be value (marketing wise) for any manufacturer that makes the cyclone that "separates best."

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that my filters are clogging over time. As to how much is a result of the the cyclone design, ductwork design, pushing physics to the limit, or poor operator technique, I can't say. I suspect if I was more careful about not turning off my machines (which closes my autogates) as quickly as I do, the separation would be better due to better (consistant) velocity through the cyclone.

We're in complete agreement. Filters clog. Anyone reading this that uses filters: They're clogging, too. Each time you use them.

I think every single cyclone or other separator designed for woodworking passes some dust. Despite the claims by some that they don't get any dust in their filter stack cleanout after using the machine for XX months and very little after cleaning it, I bet they never see a fair amount of really fine stuff that has become permanently embedded in the filter media where it is reducing CFM (that is fairly easy to measure).

100% agree.

A lot of what we see is obvious, even to non-engineers, some of it is not. Look at how many people here and on other forums don't understand the concepts and differences between CFM and SP. I am an engineer, I took a considerable amount of ME courses, but my undergraduate degree is not in ME but I'm pretty good at analyzing this stuff. My comment about the Ebay vendor is based on his responses to me (more than I quoted), and the fact it took him awhile to incorporate features like the neutral vane, spiral inlet ramp etc. that have been part of cyclone designs for many years and not just Bill's design.

Right. Just making sure we give him credit for learning and applying changes to his design. If someone reading this discounted it because they thought he didn't have any of the "more advanced features," that would be a shame.

Others like Donaldson-Torit have had them for years also. Speaking of concepts, how many folks know the (helical) spiral inlet ramp found on ClearVue, other cyclones, and in Bill's spread sheet, is only an approximation? How many know a helix can not be made from a flat sheet without deforming it considerably? The one in Bill's spread sheet is a mathematical planar approximation provided by a prof at Cornell.

Yep. We should have all learned that in grade school when we cut those scrolly things from construction paper and hung them from a string.

[Alan Schaffter]

We're in complete agreement. Pretty much completely agree with everything in this post, but I'll comment further anyhow.

My work here is done

Now back to my latest (non-DC) design. I need to refine this morning's epiphany so we can put this thing into production and I can brag about it here!

To quote Maxwell Smart. "We are thisssss close!"

[Phil Thien]

To quote Maxwell Smart. "We are thisssss close!"

I'm kinda dying to find out what this is. I've read your comments about it before. Looking forward to reading all about it!

[Matt Benton]

For those who vent outside, Phil said it all. I just purchased my second ebay cyclone (sold the first before moving), and I can promise you that if you vent outside, NASA couldn't build a cyclone that will separate so much better than this one that you would even notice.

If you're looking for a cheaper cyclone, the challenge is the blower/motor. The HF works for most single machines at a time on a short run (other than maybe a belt sander or CNC). Finding a cheap industrial unit with a larger impeller is ideal.

I share my shop space with my wife's car, and let me tell you, I can't get the dust outside fast enough. Having to deal with a filter would not be fun...

[Alan Schaffter]

I'm kinda dying to find out what this is. I've read your comments about it before. Looking forward to reading all about it!

I'm dying to spill the beans but I can't, yet.

[Phil Thien]

I'm dying to spill the beans but I can't, yet.

Sure you can. You're among friends here. We won't tell anyone.

When do you expect you'll be able to let us know?

[Alan Schaffter]

Sure you can. You're among friends here. We won't tell anyone.

When do you expect you'll be able to let us know?

Hopefully before XMAS or soon thereafter. It really isn't my call, it is my licensee's call.

[Noah Katz]

I'm very sorry you saw it as an attack on ClearVue. It was not intended that way.

Perhaps I misinterpreted "Steve Knight uses a ClearVue on his CNC router where he does plenty of MDF and has plugged at least one filter stack. I think he is back to bags now."

I took that to mean went from the Clearvue to a bag dust collector, but maybe you meant he switched from cartridge to bag filters only, but then what does that have to do with cyclones?

If I did misinterpret, I apologize.

[Phil Thien]

Perhaps I misinterpreted "Steve Knight uses a ClearVue on his CNC router where he does plenty of MDF and has plugged at least one filter stack. I think he is back to bags now."

I took that to mean went from the Clearvue to a bag dust collector, but maybe you meant he switched from cartridge to bag filters only, but then what does that have to do with cyclones?

If I did misinterpret, I apologize.

What we have here is a failure to communicate. I wasn't clear enough.

He kept the CV (and speaks highly of it). But he went back to bags because he found cleaning the cart. filter to be a pain. He had the room, so he went to a plenum and several big bags.

My points (1) All cyclones pass fines. (2) I'm not sure the CV passes less than any other brand. We don't know, nobody has done any scientific testing (that I'm aware of, at least). (3) If you're exhausting outside, trying to optimize separation beyond "good enough" is probably an indication that you need something to do.

[Noah Katz]

OK, got it.

I apologize for my ill-founded remark.