my personal take on tools

[Robert Culver]

I got to say I have been watching another thread and may have made a statement that upset some one I'm not here to judge or citisize anybody but this is where I stand. I'm always learning and triing to pass on what I know what I'm finding is that some tools on the market are over rated and they don't really measure up to the price that is asked for them. Marketing has become very crafty with the use of the internent and new people are sometimes mislead by this. If you a new person and want to get into hand tools buy a good tool and use it and learn how it works that is going to be what helps you the most. A quality tool will improve your work but be sure that's what your getting for your money be careful of sales pitches and don't get sucked in. You make the tool work the tool don't make you. My appologys for any misunderstandings.

[Brian Kent]

Good post. I will add to that the value of a community like Sawmill Creek to sort out hype from value. I also like tool comparisons by Fine Woodworking and other sources to give me a head start on what is really worth buying and using.

[Jim Koepke]

Robert,

I think you have a level headed approach to your take on tools.

Even when I was working, I was not quick to spend money on a new shiny tool. I was always looking for the tool that only required some time to tune. It may come from my upbringing when I often had more time than money.

For someone who does not have a lot of free time to invest into an old tool, the pleasures and learning offered on the path of the rust hunter may have to be sacrificed.

It is easy to see that time may be such a precious commodity in many people's lives that the time one would spend on a tool's rehabilitation is worth more than the few hundred dollars they spend to get something that works right out of the box.

jtk

[Johnny Kleso]

I started out buying the worst tools and after ten years of refinishing old tools I am sure it is cheaper to but the best you can afford...

If I had it to do all over again, it would have been cheaper to buy the best first.. If you own the best their is no second guessing or longing as many of us are also tool collectors as well as woodworkers..

[Tom McMahon]

I have read the out of the box versus fettling an old tool argument many times over the years. In my opinion it is a false argument. If you buy an old tool yes you have to sharpen and adjust it to work at its optimum level. If you buy a new tool, rarely do they really work to there optimum level out of the box, unless you are talking the really high end tools like Hotley. Also you are really just postponing the need to learn to sharpen and fettle, eventually even new tools need to be worked on unless you don't use them and usually they need some work right out of the box. For instance a while ago I bought a Lie Neilsen #4 right out of the box it worked but it left tracks, I had to relieve the edges of the blade and hone it. It is a great tool but it's not a magic bullet that will make you a great craftsman and it won't do any thing that can't be done with a quality old plane. There are also some things that some old tools will do that the new ones won't.

[John Coloccia]

I'm finding is that some tools on the market are over rated and they don't really measure up to the price that is asked for them. Marketing has become very crafty with the use of the internent and new people are sometimes mislead by this.

And here is where the whole thing derails. You may think a tool is over priced but the people who just bought it and are giving it great reviews don't share your opinion. Bickering with folks that are enjoying their tools really serves no purpose. A better approach is to start another thread about comparing various tools and their prices. State your opinions in there.

For example, there are tons of threads comparing different planes, chisels, saws etc, and part of that comparison is relative value. They rarely get off track.

I guess I'm one of those guys that's been marketed to and fooled by crafty marketing. My shop is full of Lie-Neilsen, Veritas, Pfeil, and other high-end tools. In fact, there are an awful lot of people just like me that are 100% satisfied and feel their tools were worth every penny spent. I'm glad there are people that buy old or cheap tools and tune them up. What some of us are fed up with, though, is this notion that buying a new, high-end tool somehow makes us lesser of a woodworker, talking down to us as if we're all walking around like zombies searching for the "magic bullet" that will turn us into great craftsman. Thankfully, our ancestors had enough sense to move forward and design quality tools. I wonder if they had their own peanut gallery telling them to stop wasting their money and how a real wood worker could do just as well with rocks and bones.

Just my take on the situation.

[Robert Culver]

Im not knocking anybody or any tool company. I have old tools and new tools and inbetween tools. ive done the fixer upper and the taker out of the box. I have been working with wood since I could pick my nose but Im still new at this because I have alot to learn. In my oppion there is alot more to a tool review than just saying buy it its worth the money. Pehaps to some people that is good enough but to a new guy that dont know jack from joe this is pretty vage. What makes it worth the money is what I would like to know? This is a pretty honest question? If i cant get a answer other than a vage one pehaps its really not or maybe it is. this is confusing? for exaple this plane is in my oppion better because you can adjust the frog with out removing the blade. Saying that it has a better frog just doesnt mean anything heck I may not even know what a frog is. If a plane is better because it has a thicker blade whats the beifit from that and how is it better than a stock blade. thicker is to vage. At what point of thickness does it make no diffrance anymore? Im not triing to knock anybodys fun I have been mislead myself im sure of it and im not even saying this this person was. What my point is is that if your new to this get educaed before you make your desision because what somebody may be selling you is of no benifit at all. When you ask a question make sure you get a answer that makes since. You see it all the time and magazines have even pirnted about it a guy wants to learn buys the best thinking its goin to make him a wood worker then next thing you see it for sale. That why I say learn to use what you have thats what makes you a craftsman. Also my point on what makes a person a craftsaman is very valid and i cant seem to see how im talking down to sombody who owns expencive tools if that were the case i would have to sell my lie-nielson plane to. But for the new guy understand there is no silver bullet.

[Jim Koepke]

We all have opinions. Hopefully no one thinks my opinion is that your tools are the wrong ones if you are happy with them.

That is not my intention. Whether you work with an old rail road spike that you have pounded and ground into a cutting tool or you work with the highest priced tools man can find, it is the enjoyment of what the user can make with the tool that is foremost. If one can make some items to please the wife, family and friends or produce products to sell, then so much the better.

Many tools do get me to drool, but my wallet can not support my desires. In my opinion LV, LN and others make fine tools anyone should be proud to own. If anyone comments about how "a real woodworker" wouldn't use them, just reply that they have enabled you to do some real wood working. If you sell your work, you might even be able to say they have paid for themselves. Nothing beats BS like reality.

Just an example of opinions, a well known authority on planes does not think much of the #6 size plane. He also thinks the #102 is a piece of junk. He likely has good reason to have these opinions. That does not stop me or anyone else from using and liking our #6 planes. Nor does it stop me from finding lots of uses for that cheap little piece of junk #102.

[john brenton]

It sucks to be misunderstood and piss people off. I'm amazed I haven't done that in this forum...yet.

I'm not sure what tools or gimmicks you might be talking about, but most of the expensive tools I see (with the exception of that 500 dollar saw) are reasonably priced. I think the old saying went something like "find a way to improve ther toaster and they'll beat down your door.". I know its not the but its something similar. These makers decided that they wanted to take up the noble art of toolmaking and s super kudos to the guys like Lie-Nielson that are not only making a great product (so I've heard) but clearly believe in good ol fashioned customer service. What do we expect these guys to do...NOT talk up their prduct? NOT go for the product placement in the books, vids and mags?
They have to talk up their stuff, like making you believe that somehow the tool your grapndpa made his furniture with needed a thicker iron. There's nothing wrong with any of that. They are putting people to work to build quality tools. God bless the USA. Seriously. When you do the math their tools aren't really that expensive, especially if you justify it by making quality work. If you're making simple pine shelves for the house with a 4OO dollar plane...well, that's your thing.

My dovetail saw is a homeade bow saw...it works great and didn't cost me a dime...but I'd love an LN if I could justify it. If I made better product or sold that product I'd go for a LN just because they're so nice. I agree that when it comes to any trade or hobby, you should go for used tools until you learn not to ruin your tools and really find out what tools you need. Once someone is at that point and they want all new tools that match looking all sweet and inviting in the cabinet...then good for themm

Nikes may not make you run faster, but they sure feel nice and if you can't run fast with them you KNOW it's you, not the shoe!.

[Joseph Klosek]

Just an example of opinions, a well known authority on planes does not think much of the #6 size plane.

I use my #6 as a fore plane. Sure don't have a use for a #40.

We are all experts in our own shops.

I certainly can't begrudge someone for buying a $10,000 plane more than I can the one who spends 8 hours sharpening a plane iron. For most here and at other forums the journey is what it is all about.

I, for one, am glad to have so many excellent tools to choose from. This is a great time to get into woodworking with hand tools.

J.P.

[Marv Werner]

I think I'm just a tool whore...

I just like tools. I can't remember ever not liking tools. I can't imagine living my life without them. I don't love them, but I sure would miss them if they were suddenly gone. One time I misplaced a favorite rasp. I thought about that rasp nearly everyday. I searched and searched for it for several weeks. I finally gave up and considered it gone forever. It was sad. It was hard to accept the fact that it was actually gone. I pictured it in some damp place just rusting away. It was a cheap rasp that I had bought at Sears in one of those plastic pouches that opens at the top. I still had the pouch, but no rasp. I kept the pouch hanging on it's peg, among many other hangable tools. The pouch brought back memories of when I used that tool on one of my favorite saw handles. They were good memories, so I just kept the pouch hanging around. I didn't use the pouch for any other tool, that just wouldn't have been right.

Years went by. I had bought another rasp, because I needed one, but the new one just wasn't the same. It was ok, and did a fair job but just not the same. Every time I used the new one, I couldn't help but think about my old favorite.

I'm not one to spend a lot of time cleaning up my messy shop. After an extended time of wading through the mounds of sawdust and wood chips and other misc. debris, I finally got enough ambition to do a really bang up job of cleaning my shop. I started at the ceiling with one of those round spider brooms and took down all the spider webs. I backed my pickup up to the tilt up door and started filling it with everything that was taking up space that could and should be some place else. I have a boneyard on my property where I store stuff that might come in handy someday. This only means that I don't actually throw anything away. Hey, ya never know!

Well, anyway to make a long story longer, while cleaning and moving things around a bit, I happened to move a cabinet away from the end of my work bench. Just as I moved the cabinet I heard this barely audible little clink like a piece of metal falling to the concrete floor. Could it be? Naww, no way. Just as I was turning to wipe off the end of my bench, out of the corner of my eye, I spot what looked like a file handle down between the end of my bench and the cabinet.

To be continued:

[Trevor Walsh]

I think a craftsman's work speaks the most, that's the endgame. I like old tools because I'm recycling something already manufactured, gaining use from it, without necessitating brand new manufacturing. (it's partly along the same lines as my ethical reasoning for working almost exclusively with hand tools). The only other thing I dislike about the "new tools" are comments from beginners, short on cash who have trouble starting because there is a price barrier to entry. For beginners I think rehabbed tools offer excellent fettling, sharpening, and opportunities to find what tools they will prefer.

At least that's how I did it.

[James Taglienti]

I've got a lie nielsen plane. It's nice. And all of my layout tools are brand new. But everything else is old. I just like them better. And most of them are unfettled, maybe had the sole wire wheeled, and they work beautifully. I get a real joy out of going to an auction and paying $25 for a 100 year old skew rabbet plane that's still got cosmoline on it.

As soon as my skill level outgrows the tools that I have at hand, I will consider buying some more precisely manufactured instruments. If that happens.

[Dan Andrews]

I use all older hand tools for two reasons. I collect antique tools and enjoy planing with a 100 year old plane. Also my budget dictates that I use older tools bought cheep.

If I had to make a living with woodworking hand tools there are definately some new high end tools I would buy.

I suspect that those who do the most woodworking do have a mix of new and old tools.

[George Sanders]

If I could only afford a Hotley plane I might have one. As it is I only have some old Stanley Bailey's and Bedrocks. Along with a very eclectic collection of well known and unknown makers. Bought very cheaply by the way. Learned to fettle, sharpen and adjust by way of sites like this one. I have no frame of reference as to what it is like to use a custom or high end hand plane so for now I am happy in my ignorance and content with the results I get from my old users.