Versalaser 30w Vs Epilog Mini 35w

[Pete Simmons]

Any comments on these two machines. Universal says their laser tube costs $800 to recharge. Epilog says they have the best laser that cannot be recharged but lasts a long time then you replace it - big $$$.
The Aztec Calendar Epilog sends out as a sample looks about as good as anyone could ask, while some of the other companies samples do not look as sharp.

Servo motors Vs Stepper motors any clear winner or do both have problems be it cost, accuracy or long life?

Now I hear that the supplied driver for the Versalaser does not allow for complete power and speed control and that you must buy the upgraded driver if you want total control. For >$10K I would expect total control.

I am also concerned when a company lists color options of the case in their specs as seemingly more important than info on the laser tube.

The engraver would be used mostly for wood and black marble.

Any comments will be appreciated.

[Mike Mackenzie]

Pete,

Let me start out by saying that I am a Universal rep. With that said I will try to answer your questions.

First off the laser tubes Universal has been manufacturing there own laser tubes for almost 10 years now they are well prov-en and they have in excess of 15,000 units in the field both in systems and in OEM applications. The advantages of the ULS tubes are the after purchase costs that all laser tubes will have. Not to mention some of the other technical improvements that have been made versus other laser tube MFG's.

It is true ULS used to use other mfg laser tubes in there systems, But it became imparent that the cost and the modifying of these tubes was getting out of control so they set out to develop and mfg there own. Universal has 8 US patents and several International patents pending. This is certainly not an easy process.

To answer the question the laser tube recharge cost is $850.00 exchange. What this means is when the laser tube runs out of the gases ULS sends a replacement and you send the old tube back to them. When Universal gets an old tube back they completely rebuild them with all new electronics gases, etc.
so in a sense you are receiving a new updated tube for that cost. Other laser tube MFG's only repair whats broke and they charge you for that then if something else goes wrong its back to the shop for more money.

Don't be fooled by samples sent out to you they were probably done on a different system than the one you are interested in buying. I highly recommend getting a demo on the systems before you decide to purchase.

Servos / steppers you will not gain or loose anything between the two for the simple reason the size of the system. The draw back to the servos is the encoders and working with wood and or marble. Wood creates a very sticky resin that is caused by lasering this resin gets all over everything. Marble on the other hand creates a fine dust that gets into everything. If the decoders get dirty you will have positioning problems. Not to mention the motion system the minis use must be lubricated. I don't know if you ever had a drop of oil in the wood shop but I guarantee the saw dust would be attracted to it in less than 2 minutes.

With the versa lasers you simply wipe down the motion system there is not a lot of area for the debris to collect so the longevity of the system will be longer. Also the cost to replace a servo is much higher than the cost of a stepper if it ever needed to be replaced.

The Versa dealers are only allowed to sell the systems with the materials based driver However if you go to the Universal dealer and purchase the Versa they can give you the Advanced driver free of charge. It is about the necessary training that must be accompanied with the advanced drivers.

As for the colors or the specs this is why I would highly recommend to visit your representative to get a better education regarding the systems.

Here is a company that has been working with the Universal systems for many years they are in Dade City FL.

Engraving Systems Support 800-374-8928.

It would be your gain to see these systems work and to know who you are working with once you purchase a system.

[James Stanaway]

Hi Pete,

Thought you may like to get the Epilog perspective as well. Like Mike said, it is definitely best to take a look at a demo of both systems before you choose one to purchase. Both are very good systems, but there are definitely some differences between the two. Compare the build quality of the laser systems, the speed of the engraving and cutting and, most importantly, the quality of the engraving and cutting. It should be fairly clear to you which system will better meet your needs.


The laser tube is the heart of the system, which is why Epilog uses Coherent/DEOS waveguide laser tubes in all of our models. DEOS has been manufacturing sealed carbon dioxide laser tubes for about 20 years and was a large supplier to the military for over 15 years. They rate their tubes for 25,000 – 30,000 hours of Co2 gas life. We see an average of about 5 years before they need to be recharged, then the recharge cost is about $1500, but can be more expensive if there is an electrical problem on the tube.


The laser tubes used in all Epilog systems are rated to operate at their minimum rated output whether they have been on for three minutes, three days or three months. The laser beam quality and diffusion tolerances Epilog adheres to are much more stringent than other manufacturers. The laser tubes may operate at higher levels, but not below the rated output. Typically, the power output levels average about 10% above the rated minimum output.


As for the Aztec Calendar sample we sent you, I'm glad you liked the detail - it is definitely one of my favorite sample pieces because it really shows off the capabilities of the system with a very detailed image. We have been running all of the wood sample pieces we have been sending out on a Mini 24x12 45 watt. If you would like to see it on a 35 watt, I'd be happy to send one to you. I have run that sample on all of our systems, and have gotten excellent results on each of them.


We see a great deal of benefit in using closed-loop servo motors because they provide superior speed (ramp down and acceleration) and intelligent feedback (position sensing) which results in overall higher quality in the final product. Mike is correct that you have to wipe off the linear encoder regularly if you are doing a large amount of wood, but even on the systems we run here in the office for 8 hours a day with the wooden aztec calendars, we have to clean it once every two to three weeks. All you do is remove the cover over the encoder strip with a few screws and wipe off the strip. It takes a few minutes to complete.


The motion system of the Mini does need to be lubricated with bearing grease because we use stainless steel bearing that last for many years. With many other systems you have to replace the rubber bearings repeatedly as they wear down. We and our customers believe that a little maintenance is better than costly consumable replacement.


Epilog's driver for the Mini is extremely user friendly. There are no upgrades to be able to control speed and power, and it is very straightforward to use. I've even been playing with the 3D capabilities of the driver recently using simple corel files I created and have been getting great results. You can see one at http://www.epiloglaser.com/colorado_3d.htm. I created this in a few hours, and didn't have to use the expensive 3D software to design it.


If you have any other questions I can help you with, please let me know. You owe it to yourself to see the systems in action - you will see a difference.


Thank you,


James Stanaway
Marketing
Epilog Laser
jstan@epiloglaser.com

[Aaron Koehl]

This is fantastic, thanks for the info and perspectives, gentlemen.

[Mike Mackenzie]

I don't want to get into an I said they said scenario. There are some points that need to be cleared up. First Universal does not use rubber wheels on there system. And the replacement cost is a mere $25.00 each. If they are maintained correctly you won't need to replace them for quite some time.

You may want to compare this to the cost to replace the motion system on the mini.

The speed of the engraving is only relevant to the product you are engraving.

Get a demo from both Epilog and ULS bring your file or files and discover for yourself that the speed won't be that different.

The other point to be made here is where is the time clock on the laser tubes?

I don't know of any system that has any method of tracking the time the laser tube has been in use.

If you calculate the 30,000 hours it equals out to 3.5 years thats on the high end.

The bottom line here is both systems are good and you the customer need to do your homework and make your decision based on Machine, Service & Support.

By the way any laser system can do 3D engraving there is nothing new to that.

[Jeff DeVore]

Hi James,
What is cost of the laser tube if you need a total replacement for the mini?
Also I have a Legend 75WEx and would like to know the price range on a tube on it. From the low of just filling the tube to a high of a total replacement. What type and price range of repairs on the tube do you usually see? I have been running a demo model I bought for about a year now and need to know how much to set aside when the tube goes. Also is it cheaper to send it in directly to Coherent/Deos and what would the approximate cost and turn around time for that be? Thanks, Jeff.

[Roy Brewer]

Pete,

Both companies you are considering have very good products; both companies are financially strong and have excellent tech support and R&D staff. I've known both your local distributors for longer than I care to divulge and I can tell you they are both among the best in the country.

Since this ain't my first rodeo, I'll offer some tips.
1. Get at least one demo from each distributor, but be aware that there is so little profit in the machines you are considering it may not be fair to ask them to give you more than one demo (the following might make one demo all that i necessary).
2. After you explain your plans, ask them if they think you should be considering stepping up to a larger &/or more powerful machine. If yes, ask them to detail/illustrate. Even if you can't possibly spend another $, ask the question anyway. If you budget is unlimited, listen hard to their thoughts(and to the suggestions of the members of this forum).
3. Ask them for suggestions that might help you grow your business with their product.
4. Let them know in advance there are certain products/processes you want to see demonstrated.
5. Take some of your own files and materials to be engraved; don't let the second see what the first did.
6. Ask them for pros & cons of servo & stepper (there *are* pros *and* cons for each!)
6. "Point blank" ask your demonstrator "Why should I buy your machine instead of 'brand X'?"

The forgoing is about as unbiased as I can be and should give you a good feel for which distributor would be best for you.

The following suggested questions will show my bias.
---Red dot pointer included?
---Fully functional glass engraving attachment available?
---Vector grid included?
---Air assist included?
---Auto Focus included (work on acrylic, cylindrical, etc)?
---Vacuum Table design included?
---Maximum part thickness (depth)?
---Ethernet?
---Same print driver as larger equipment?
---How many colors available?

BTW, If you don't speak Texan: "this ain't my first rodeo," should be interpreted as "I've been around a long time!"

[James Stanaway]

Hi Jeff,

If there was a need to totally replace the tube on a Mini, it would be $1800. On a 75EX a recharge would be $1250, but if the tube completely went out for another reason, we are looking at a higher cost - around $2700. We have really seen a wide variety of reasons that tubes come back - everything from recharges to some internal optic replacements to electrical problems. We wouldn't suggest that you send your tube directly to Coherent because of the issue of turnaround time - if you have a problem with a tube, we can send you a replacement tube as soon as the problem is identified, so you wouldn't have to wait for it to be fixed first.

Thanks,
James Stanaway
Marketing
Epilog Laser
jstan@epiloglaser.com

[Jeff DeVore]

Hi James,

Thanks for the fast reply. The main reason I was asking is that someone on another board said for their 100 watt Epilog they were quoted $8,000. Thought that was kind of high and my heart just about jumped into my stomach when I read that. Your figures are closer to what I've heard before and something that I can handle without having to get a second mortgage!! Thanks again, Jeff.

[Rodne Gold]

Im about as unbiased as you get considering I'm not in the USA and have no ties whatsoever to any mnfgr (Albeit I use GCC machines). Roy has posted some very good points , look at those.
I can't tell you which of the 2 systems to get , I have used neither, but can tell you a little about sources , motion systems , bearings etc , considering we have been using CNC machinery/engravers for almost 20 years and lasers for 5.
In the first place , all lasers in the same price/size/power class will mostly do the same job. This is an ultra competitive field and no one mnfgr seems to have a substantial jump on another.
Lets get to the nitty gritty.
Size and power: Table size is a double edged sword , yes you can do big stuff with big tables , however alignment across the table and power drops over it are an issue. there is no point to a big table if your alighnment goes out frequently or if you have a lower powered laser which cant compensate adequately for drops across it. Big working areas do however mean that you can fit bigger items into the laser and do multiple jobs effectively, they also mean that you can fit a twin head system on the machine and almost double production while still having a decent engraving area.
Power is king , mostly. Higher powers do not only translate to better speed when cutting , but better processing as well. In terms of engraving , you don't really need exceptionally high power to do most stuff , thus the ACTUAL speed of the laser comes into play here , even at 25 w you would probably be using 100% speed and less than 100% power to engrave. Speed is also an unclear issue as there is actual vs rated speed. Yes one laser might be able to ziop around at 500m per second , but can it accelerate to that speed well , decellerate well and what is the quality of engraving at that speed?
Can the WHOLE table be used at that speed as well? Apart from that , the way the driver handles the graphics is also vital as to actual speed , for example some drivers can optimise the way stuff is engraved , speedily skipping "white" space . Or for example if there are 2 pieces of engraving one either side of the table , some drivers can do the one first and then go onto the other rather than scanning across the table which can speed stuff up substantially.
Power too is a an "unclear" issue as much depends on the spot size and beam quality. 50 watts spread over a big spot size will not cut or process as well as lower powers spread over a smaller spot size . Like you may be able to exert 100 pounds pressure on a blunt knife and sort of cut , whereas 25 pounds on a scalpel wil be surgically precise.
In terms of bearing systems , this too is a field fraught with difficulty. Generally the best type bearings tend to be large and heavier with serious rails and components for ultra stability. This will affect speed of the system somewhat as one needs more serious motors to move these and acceleration and decelleration is a problem. IMHO the best bearing are recirulating balls on precision ground rails. I have no machines in my shop that have decent motions systems that do not require periodic lubrication etc if being used in any production environment.
As to drive systems , IE how the motor drives these motion systems , that too is a murky issue. There are many sysems , like rack and pinion , cables , kevlar belts and recirculating bearings on lead screws (the best IMHO)
However NONE of these systems are totally immune to having to be fine tuned or maintained over the life of the machine.
Stepper motors are generally the pits without a closed loop positioning system , they can lose steps and can never recover from a problem on a job , repositioning is well nigh impossible. The diff tween a servo loop system and a stepper is like this: the stepper says 2 steps up and 2 steps along takes you to where you want to be and another 3 steps up and 4 along to the next point but can never precisely pinpoint whether you are there the other says "go there" and then "go there" with precision and doesnt rely on counting steps to assuge that position. This is simplistic but it sort of illustrates the point. I would NEVER go for a stepper motor machine (I have a few smaller engraving machines that do use em tho , never had many real problems with em barring functionality) for ultimate accuracy and reliability. Some steppers take real big steps and output on circles and curves is nowhere as smooth as using different types of servo loop motors.
As to positioning sensors , well they should be in sealed enclosures for protection and the better ones are optical shaft encoders on the motor itself.
Tube issues: We have had numerous tube failures with both Synrad and Coherent sources. I have run many lasers for quite a long time in a production environment where they get heavy usage (10 hrs continous a day)
NOT ONE tube failure has been due to or caused by gas issues. RF board failure , electronic issues, poor QC on the part of the laser mnfgrs, power supply issues , driver issues and overheating is the main cause of failure. So IMHO the tube has to be covered by a no quibble replacement warantee , the longer the better. 3 yrs is good. Also , does the warantee extend to the relacement , IE is it too guaranteed for 3 yrs? (I doubt it would be like that , but it would be nice?)
It is also a great idea to buy a platform that can take a variety of tubes and that can be upgraded easily. Make sure your laser supplier can get a tube/parts to your real quick , being down a few days can cost big.
Then there is the beam delivery system , essentially the focussing lens does most of the work and the mirrors merely direct an unfocussed beam. Considering the fact that the laser beam is being directed in 3d space , the mirror housing and the mirror mounting and adjustment systems must be very robust to avoid vibrations. The systems should be as easy to clean as possible without distrurbing alignment and should be as protected as possible with getting dirty inside the laser . Some lasers are way better at that than others and resin smoke etc will get EVERYWHERE. Most maintenace and small repairs should be undertakeable by the user , like replacing a belt , a drive motor , optical alignment etc.

To be blunt , I think the fact that you dont get a fully configurable driver right off the bat , sucks . It assumes the user is somewhat cretinous and has to be "protected". Small lasers etc are as functional as large systems and and should be supplied so.
ALL systems will have issues , no dealer will tell you about them or highlight them , users often are the best source for these. The issues one system has over another can be either negligable or totally vital to you - find out about them!!
Here are a few things to ask the dealers to do/answer re the system as a whole
1)Will it run with your favourite software and will you be able to easily import and export various file formats to that software. We get an incredible amount of files sent to us and have to work with them , so I want drivers that work with native apps as well , like Autocad etc.
2) Turnarounds on replacement items and any fine print in the warrantee? What EXACTLY is waranteed!!!
3) Take the same file and let them run both at the same dpi settings , use a mixed raster/vector file to see how easy it is to configure the machine to do more complex tasks. See the ACTUAL time it takes , and look at the quality (with a loupe).
4) Ask them to set up the rotary , supply em an item and ask the to engrave it - see how easy it is to accomplish this (my rotary is almost unusable - it's not a huge issue for me)
5) Engrave really small text at high speed , buy a loupe and inspect it , try bold text with serifs and ultra light san serif text , both should engrave real crisp real fast. 1-2mm high is good.
4) Engrave a RASTER grid across the whole table , look for dead straight unshattered lines , constant line width and depth of engraving , see that the machine actally DOES a 1"x 1"square , do the same vith a vector grid , look at the size on program vs the size on the machine.
5) Cut small circles and squares , see that they are squares and circles and then cut some smallish ones in thick material like 6-8mm acrylic , look to see the cut goes straight down and the sides arent slanted , look at the quality of the cut and the polished edge and localized heat affected zones .
I know you say you will mainly be doing wood and marble , so perhaps some of what Im saying is not that relevant to your application , but undobtedly you will expand and a lot of what I have said apply to the overal system quality. In your case , I would look at the max weight a table can take , considering a thick slab of stone can be pretty heavy.
Dealer support and warrantees are paramount , as far as Im concerned , these should be dealbreaker issue's.
This just concerns the tool itself , the measure of success you will have depends entirely on your creativity and marketing skills , but having the best most cost effective tool for your job will help a lot.'

[Mike Mackenzie]

Rodne,

All good points some I agree with and some I don't. I just want to say that your points are good and should be listened to.

I also want to say that it would be nice to get a $100,000.00 dollar system for 9,995.00 but That won't happen.

Do your homework then decide whats best for you.

[Keith Outten]

Pete,

All of these folks are very knowlegable and most of us consider them "Heavy Hitters" in the industry. I know that the details can be very confusing, purchasing your first laser engraver is a tough decision to make. Remember that almost everyone who owns a Versalaser or an Epilog will generally tell you that they are very happy with their machines so the decision isn't as critical as you might think. The issue that you need to resolve is which machine fits your business plan and technical requirements.

Take the test drives and pick the one that fits you the best. Let us know what you decide and why, your decision may very well help someone else who is also considering the purchase of a laser engraver.

[Bruce Larson]

Just for another point from someone who has been using CNC machinery for many years, 2000 hours is normally considered one years use on a one shift normal operation. This is arrived at by multiplying 40 hours by 50 weeks, assuming some vacation and goof off time.
Will a laser tube last 20,000 hours? I don't know, but I am sure that the individual using it, and what he is processing, can have a significant effect on the total time received.

[Pete Simmons]

Very nice machine. Looking forward to learning a lot.

[James Stanaway]

Congratulations, Pete! Be sure to let me know if there is anything I can help you with!

James Stanaway
Epilog Laser
Marketing
jstan@epiloglaser.com